 LGagnon says: Having seen this logical fallacy used on Clipmarks several times, I thought it would be a good idea to point it out to everyone so that we can avoid this in the future. my compliments LGagnon, this is important, thanks This has been unnecessarily noted several times here at The Clip. This is advice much less apropos here than in the real world. To take anything personally in the interaction here is silly. You can't control the behaviour of others, but you can control your reactions. There are those who will take simple disagreement personally. Taking offense seems to have become a hobby with many. We should speak our minds. Say what we think. This is about thinking, ideas, philosophies, beliefs in interation, and not persons in any real life sense. Let's not be hyersensitive. edit: ...beliefs in interaction oh good grief..... hypersensitive Who said anything about taking offense or hypersensitivity? I'm simply telling people to be logical in their arguments. This works out for the best for both sides: the person making the argument doesn't have to face nonsense, and the person making the counterargument doesn't come off like an illogical fool. It's good advice for anyone who wants to come off as intellectually minded. You are entitled to your determinations that my disinterest in debating some of your comments, which I view as too ludicrous, as being for lack of logical response or argument, and evidence that I'm an illogical fool. This is what I'm getting at about not taking ad hominem and such seriously or personally. You are free to not respond to my arguments, but know that simply responding with insults that contain no logical counterargument only makes you look intellectually immature. Trust me, you should take logic seriously, because without it you won't look too good in the eyes of those listening to you speak. Well you have just articulated a significant difference between us. I don't care. I'm not interested in impressing you or anyone. And as you clearly take as personally insulting my view of some of your positions as absurd, then you are essentially saying that I have two choices engaging in what I view as a pointless exchange or say nothing. Sorry. Sometimes a simple and succinct statement is sufficient. Conclude as you wish. ...but I do appreciate your concern as to how I appear to others. That's sweet. I don't see how I clearly take your statements personally. You've given no proof for this argument. And I didn't say you can't make a simple statement. I said that an illogical insult that has no logical counterargument within it will only come off as foolish. If you do not care about making a decent argument, then I can only assume you're here just to troll the site. If that is the case, then none of your arguments are worthy of respect. You have, very quickly upon your arrival at The Clip, come up with L Gagnon's Clipmarks Commenting Guidlines. Very ambitious, but somewhat presumptuous. I've never come up with formulations for Clipmark comment protocol for others. Well, I guess I have offered the "don't take things personally" suggestion. I just figure folks have different styles of participation. It never occurred to me to attempt homogenization. I didn't create any guidelines. This is basic logic, which you will be taught in any Philosophy of Logic, Basic Rhetoric, or Intermediate Composition class you take in college (or at least any good one). And again, you have no proof to back your claim that I'm taking things personally. Your argument is faulty and utterly pointless unless you improve or revise it. Proof of claims? are you serious? These are my opinions. Take them or leave them. You really need to loosen up. A sense of humor is a more valuable commodity here than instructions on effective eggshell walking. You are stating that I am taking this personally as a fact; you don't state it as an opinion. Even then, if you were you would do best to back your opinion with proofs to lend credibility to your opinion. I do have a sense of humor, but unfortunately you take me too seriously to notice it. I'm sorry, my mistake. But you seemed to be virtually insisting on being taken very seriously after my amusement with some of your previous comedy. From now on I'll take special care to detect even the subtlest pun or quip. [disclaimer: the preceding was opinion, and not a statement of verifiable fact] I reckon it'd be sad, sad irony if this thread devolved into a flamewar! I really hope it won't come to that. On an offbeat but also sad note, I remember this one, long-civil argument that completely broke down after someone brought up mention of an "ad hominem", and as the bad luck of misinterpretation would have it, someone (who was not gay) mistook it for "homo attack" somehow, and let's just say even distinguishing the letter "A" from "B" was difficult after that. I enjoy insights as diverse as opinions, so this wasn't one of the more shining moments in the Internet's storied history. Not even close. No flames here, Torley, but your anecdote serves as good illustration of the difficulty inherent when dealing with the over sensitive. If you do not care about making a decent argument, then I can only assume you're here just to troll the site.Hey, LGagnon. If you check the archives, you'll see you are not the first to realize this. Far from it, unfortunately. As far as engendering civility and respect, part of the problem is that GD has nothing to lose in these departments and so is correct in saying he has no incentive in building a reputation for rational argument. Hence, as he implies (and history has shown), GD's logical fallacies will continue unabated. Also, sweeping insults are his main stock in trade, so he's not about to give them up for no reason. On the plus side, the rest of us are passionate ab... K7, still finding me the most fascinating Clipper. Rarely here from you on any other topic lately. You should get back into the mix. Seems as if GD lives to be the Clipmarks gadfly! Love the username Wow, I just noticed the new feature indicating how many times a clip has been viewed. Has that been there all day, or since yesterday--the update? Lots of people taking a peek here but not popping ... or those who are popping? why? I personally don't see a point of this clip, and I also didn't realize it was meant for Godfrey.....hmm. BTW, this new feature is excellent, but it isn't showing up on all the clips, not sure what the criteria is. I actually didn't consider whether this was intended by L Gagnon with me in mind, but as you may have noticed, Arif, one of my favorite topics has to do with the differences between real life interaction and this online variety, and in addition, what I think is the greater wisdom of being in control of one's reactions and emotions, as opposed to the sticky wicket of trying to control the behaviour of others in online interaction. You are the third person not involved in this discussion Mr Gagnon and I were having to express some mysterious angst about it. What troubles you about it? Try to keep in mind that this is simply pixelized disagreement. It's virtual. No harm h... True intellectuals deal with the facts, the goal being to either refute or confirm or support the evidence presented and not just attempting to win an argument by simply and futilely trying to shoot the messenger. A true intellectual sees so clearly how Ad Hominem attacks is nothing more than a fly in the marmelade pot of any intelligent discussion. I know you probably don't care about your reputation Godfrey, that is undeniably obvious, but trolling is time wasting and extemely disruptive and annoying to others who clearly understand that online interactions are NOT just pixelized non-virtual kindergarden playgrounds. Words DO have power. Power to enlighten and educate or to insult and dis... I don't know about anybody else, but I'm thinking that most of us who generally (mea culpa) follow critical thinking guidelines when attempting to communicate, do so then: when attempting to communicate. I've seen (and received) a couple of communications from GD, and also noticed that lots of his comments seem to be for his own amusement. The problem here arises when one is mistaken for the other and someone attempts to draw GD into rational discussion of a comment he intended only to express his opinion. In my experience it is quite common for people who don't care to enter into intellectual dialogue as an exchange of ideas with the inherent possibility of alt... Great! An ad hominem attack / flare up among leftist sensitives on a thread about ad hominim attacks by the one who threw out the first one. So much fun to watch ..you.......mmmmmchchchhhkkkk!....uh....intellectuals. Ha ha ha ha ha ! Davboz, you only continue to show the intellectual immaturity of the right. Again, you didn't make a logical argument. Having a person like davboz on the conservative side, must make every decent right-winger cringe with embarrasment at his lack of "ambassadorial skills" for the party he claims to support. And besides, this issue isn't about being left or right... can't you see that? Nevertheless, I'm soooo glad you're not a "leftie" davboz  Agreed. It's not about politics; we could be talking about favorite foods and the concept of ad hominem would still apply. Nonetheless, in the realm of politics I see this problem more often with the right than the left. Now, that you mention it... hmm. Lefties don't seem so serious (read:uptight) and laugh a whole more around here I reckon, but maybe that's just because I click leftie clippers' clips more often perhaps, so the statistic truth on that opinion are pretty weak, I fear. I dunno know, it just seems that way.  Not that tree huggers aren't serious or passionate about their issues, just less aggressive in the way they approach their counterparts perhaps. The clip showing the video parody of "lefties vs conservatives" IS sort of how I do tend to see right-wingers though, I must admit. Shirts and ties and slick hair...naaa, not my cup of tea. I don't think I'd appreciate a guy who I'd have to w... Another way i could put that would be, that the right, seem to always only want to see and believe that the enemy could only ever come from without, failing to see, that the enemy just as often comes from within. thats a very good tip for meetings too. Dont talk about persons, just about facts and tasks. i mean business meetings. Awww,,@funana. I thot you meant 12 step meetings. *gigglesnort* davboz, what's a "mmmmmchchchhhkkkk"?? I've been trying to sound that one out. Yeah davboz, what's up with the newspeak? *thinking I'd better go look it up in the dictionary....hell, why don't I just clip it, so we all can understand the new language.* See what happens when you try to order people around and put yourself in the place of caretaker of a site you had nothing to do with? You bring about the thing you tried to suppress. You didn't "get" my point because you didn't want to. Just like on the "political" sites I used to frequent for comedy's sake, I need to spell it out sooooo slowly for you. -1)You started with a clip and a point about not attacking people personally and keeping arguments on topic and to the subject matter. O.K.? (Principles before personalities. Right, funana?)(And it is a good approach.) -2)The comment thread immediately descended into a volley of personal attacks with additional piling on,thereafter. O.K.? ... @davboz You've pretty much addressed your own comment by the statement "seeing clearly the irony immediately" and so on, so don't abuse Ad Hominem as a something you use every time someone just disagrees with you or catches you out on something that annoys you. The clip "descended" if you wish, into nothing more than ironi, sarcasm, humour and fun, by yourself ALSO it seems with the whole "mmmmmchchchhhkkkk" and the "leftie sensitives" comment for example and so on, Don't confuse that with personal attacks. I'm a leftie and I didn't take your input personally. No one said, "You are a "this" or you are a "that" about you as far as I can tell? It's when people start throwing around statement... Oops! Forgot to check the character limit. Sorry! Here's the last bit: (I've done this myself) It's the aggressive demening and repeated attacks on a person, we're trying to avoid. Just to try to keep a little bit of politeness and civility in place, so we don't get too distracted from the issues, by having to defend ourselves the whole time. That's all. You see? . (PS) I personally don't mind LGagnon, "caretaking" a little bit to keep us all on the right track. Seems totally okay with me! (and rather justified I think, just by the need for this clip) He's not bossing anyone around that I can tell, just giving us a friendly tap on the shoulder to remind us to stay sane and civilized. No harm in that, I reckon .  (PPS) You threw this comment at me just a few hours ago, so perhaps you should include yourself into the "ironics" of it all? Hmm? You have obviously got some mental block to accepting reality and DOING THE RESEARCH.ou're definitely not perfect yourself it seems, so stop bossing us around! *giggling* Sorry, I couldn't help it Gagnon doth protest too much methinks.......... This clip is a bunch of bull because everyone who has commented on it is a jerk - even me. Fun watching the swashbuckling... Just wish I had more time to dedicate to this patime... but I'm trying to get on with reading other clips... So long as you're all enjoying yourselves.... No harm done, if no-one gets hurt.... |
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