I don't buy any of it Schribe. And I don't believe the Republican part has any monopoly on moral values. I'm a liberal. I'm a Christian and I didn't vote for George W. Bush. The "religious" take-over of the Republican party didn't happen overnight. A series of Supreme court decisions angered religious conservatives and convinced them that they had to get political too. So victory and success, money and access to the White House and the media was all the proof they needed of God's approval and blessing. and anyone who disagreed was a a liberal, or an atheist.
But I believe in order to reclaim the moral high ground the Dems must take back the language of passion and moral conviction from...

I don't buy any of it Schribe. And I don't believe the Republican part has any monopoly on moral values. I'm a liberal. I'm a Christian and I didn't vote for George W. Bush. The "religious" take-over of the Republican party didn't happen overnight. A series of Supreme court decisions angered religious conservatives and convinced them that they had to get political too. So victory and success, money and access to the White House and the media was all the proof they needed of God's approval and blessing. and anyone who disagreed was a a liberal, or an atheist.
But I believe in order to reclaim the moral high ground the Dems must take back the language of passion and moral conviction from the religious right. And most importantly, we need to redefine and recapture what we mean by "family values" or "moral values". The fact that 36 million Americans live below the poverty line is a moral issue. The fact that 45 million Americans have no health insurance is a moral issue. When the President of our country consistently lies to us about reasons for going to war, that is a moral issue! When the U.S. refuses to protect God's creation by joining any other nations in taking action against global warming, that is a moral issue. If "Americhristians" want to talk about moral issues, then bring it on! But bring it on with it's full biblical dimension, not the tunnel-vision, sex-crazed, version of morality we usually hear from these people.

But I believe in order to reclaim the moral high ground the Dems must take back the language of passion and moral conviction from the religious right.

Damn right.

But your task is a big one. It is to educate that the religious right never occupied the moral "high" ground in the first place.

But how do you tell a Christian that gays should have the same rights as everyone else, when their god says its an abomination?

Premarital sex, birth control, AIDS reducing contraceptives, scientific research, even public education.. all have religious connotations that disagree with secular equality and fairness.

Wouldn't you in essence be saying that their god is morally wrong, or...

But I believe in order to reclaim the moral high ground the Dems must take back the language of passion and moral conviction from the religious right.

Damn right.

But your task is a big one. It is to educate that the religious right never occupied the moral "high" ground in the first place.

But how do you tell a Christian that gays should have the same rights as everyone else, when their god says its an abomination?

Premarital sex, birth control, AIDS reducing contraceptives, scientific research, even public education.. all have religious connotations that disagree with secular equality and fairness.

Wouldn't you in essence be saying that their god is morally wrong, or behind the cultural times?

Yes, poverty, lack of health coverage, and lying leaders, are all moral issues. And I commend you wanting to galvanize the Christian base to correct the immoral leadership. Really I do; there need to be more like you in the Christian base.

But notice what you're saying here:

If "Americhristians" want to talk about moral issues, then bring it on! But bring it on with it's full biblical dimension, not the tunnel-vision, sex-crazed, version of morality we usually hear from these people.

But see? If you want to "bring it on with it's full biblical dimension"... you'll be crushed by the weight of your own bible.

Biblically speaking... they ARE right! You simply can't say god was right then, but is wrong now, never mind the zeitgeist of the times.

You, and I really like your causes debbyski, are fighting for secular morals, secular values!

Just because "some" of them are mentioned in the scriptures doesn't mean they are spiritual any more than the bad ones.

But you can't pretend like the "bad" ones in scripture don't count because they were in a past time and culture. Because that would mean that "YOU" are the sole arbiter of biblical right from wrong.

Surprise! Aren't you anyway?

Thank you for your encouragement Aces, I appreciate that, but I have to say we disagree about the part that these are purely secular values because I feel that you are just seeing it through your eyes and also the Christian right's eyes and we have had this debate before. If you want to call the Social Gospel meaningless because it is not the Christian right's particular interpretation of Scripture, then be my guest and call it secular only, but any interest in debating that issue actually is counter-productive for me. MY particular bin of disbelief is much too precious for me to waste on that because I save that for homophobia, empire, and injustice, and inequality. Now, as to your ...

Thank you for your encouragement Aces, I appreciate that, but I have to say we disagree about the part that these are purely secular values because I feel that you are just seeing it through your eyes and also the Christian right's eyes and we have had this debate before. If you want to call the Social Gospel meaningless because it is not the Christian right's particular interpretation of Scripture, then be my guest and call it secular only, but any interest in debating that issue actually is counter-productive for me. MY particular bin of disbelief is much too precious for me to waste on that because I save that for homophobia, empire, and injustice, and inequality. Now, as to your question, can I convince the Christian right that they are wrong for their particular interpration of Scripture including subjects like justice, compassion, homosexuality, war, and rapture? No, I cannot Aces. Furthermore, this is the most politically involved and vocal form of Christianity in America today. It is also courted by the secular wing of the politcal right. Together they support American imperial policy and the use of armed force to enforce that policy. They ridicule the evidence for global warming and even encourage their followers to discount what scientists are saying about the problem. On government and economic policy, most see government as at best "a necessary evil" and embrace the "smaller government and lower taxes which is always the rhetoric of the secular politcal right. As a result they support economic and tax policies that benefit the wealthiest among us.
Now I turn to encouraging signs Aces. One I already mentioned is that there is a growing movement toward the "Social Gospel." and those Christians need to organize the vote with the secular wing of the political left. If we let the rise of religious extremism along with the secular right continue to distort America policy, then it is our damn fault.

I sort of 'skimmed" through both responses. Sorry, but I can't get into the details of the bible or the religious "rightness" or "wrongness" of the theories of the bible. I think I somehow know what is moral, and what is not moral. I'm not sure I need to get into all that retoric. All anyone needs to do is try real hard to live a good life and take care of those immediately around you. I'm real tired of the organized religion, and all the nonsense we have gone through in the past eight long years with this Bush character. I'm getting old (65 years worth), and this country's policies toward other countries and us "middle class" people in this country has been totally outrageous. Hopeful...

I sort of 'skimmed" through both responses. Sorry, but I can't get into the details of the bible or the religious "rightness" or "wrongness" of the theories of the bible. I think I somehow know what is moral, and what is not moral. I'm not sure I need to get into all that retoric. All anyone needs to do is try real hard to live a good life and take care of those immediately around you. I'm real tired of the organized religion, and all the nonsense we have gone through in the past eight long years with this Bush character. I'm getting old (65 years worth), and this country's policies toward other countries and us "middle class" people in this country has been totally outrageous. Hopefully the Bush years will end soon, and we will get back to being the great nation that we are!