The Devil's Delusion

materialist philosophy

This is really at the core of the motivation and intent of the divide. Much of the Materialist movement today is motivated by agenda not science, logic, or evidence. Everything is settled. Materialism, not science wholly, is the core of Evolution, Global Warming, Evolutionary Psychology, social sciences, law and Socialism. It is the prime tenent. Without it they all fail.

6-1-2008 2:40 PM

What knowledge has come from religion?

6-1-2008 4:26 PM

Knowledge does not come from religion. Knowledge comes from people engaged in theology.

Knowledge does not come from Science. Knowledge comes from people doing science.

In order to gain knowledge from each, then you have to be engaged in each.

6-1-2008 8:18 PM

Antara

I am wrestling with this topic of late......especially after reading a bit of 'Wittgenstein on religion'. Still lots for me to learn, digest and reflect on......

I adore Sam Harris' open mind. Some might have trashed an article that painted them in a bad light.....but he has it front and center on his blog, lol.
He is a gem.

6-1-2008 8:27 PM

I am wrestling with this topic of late......especially after reading a bit of 'Wittgenstein on religion'.

That is a questionable source at which to start an investigation on this topic, but I guess each has his own path.

I would only suggest avoiding the trap I often see made by the Left on political issues, where they are clearly intent on havinging their intellectual starting point, sources, and ultimate edification all dependent on one another. That is not investigation. That is looking for the answers you want to find.

6-2-2008 12:38 AM

What knowledge has come from theology?

6-2-2008 1:11 AM

What knowledge has come from theology?

Theological knowledge.

And what knowledge comes from science?

Scientific Knowledge.

And what knowledge comes from experience?

Personal knowledge.

And what knowledge comes from philosophy?

The ability to apprehend in a reasonable way scientific and theological knowledge.

And what knowledge comes from education?

Practical knowledge

And what knowledge comes from reason?

The knowledge that leads one to keep seeking more knowledge.

The reason theological knowledge means something to me is because I have passed the starting point. You haven't so you do not ask the same questions I do.

In the words of another former a...

6-2-2008 11:10 AM

What knowledge has come from religion?

Knowledge does not come from religion. Knowledge comes from people engaged in theology.

What knowledge has come from theology?

Theological knowledge.

From your computer screen to the medicine chest, to your cell phone to your automobile... demonstrable, verifiable, scientific knowledge continues to advance.

But religious (or theological) knowledge? The world is still waiting for a demonstration.

With claims to access to the highest power and knowledge in the universe, how come no discoveries have come from religion?

The devil's delusion is belief in superstition. It yields nothing but more superstition, whi...

6-2-2008 11:16 AM

ratilfar

What knowledge has come from theology?

Theological knowledge.

Redundant ain't it!

6-2-2008 2:01 PM

how come no discoveries have come from religion?

The same reason no discoveries come from science. Discoveries are in the person doing the discovering.

6-2-2008 2:04 PM

Remember, discoveries come from people doing science.

6-2-2008 8:20 PM

"What's So Great About Christianity" is a great book for believers and non-believers alike. It dispels much of the bad rap that Christianity got from the Crusades, Inquisition and the Galileo affair. It also goes into detail all the amazing changes that the spread of Christianity brought, i.e an end to slavery. The author is D'Inesh D'Souza. Yes he is a Conservative but that is not the perspective of the book. You can see him debate Harris, Hitchens and Dawkins at several different venues. Google it.

6-3-2008 4:48 AM

I watched it (the debate), it was quite long. I don't think I learned much new, but I think D'inesh could have made stronger arguments concerning morality.

His main idea is morality basically came from Christianity, which of course needs a lot of support to even fathom such a claim.

But he kept dropping the ball every time Hitchens showed a counter example. Dinesh never really "developed" the idea, in other words.

Since the evils of Christianity are as abundant as the good in Christianity, Dinesh would never win with that method. He should have focused on the "quality" of moral development as a result of Christianity, instead of the quantity.

6-3-2008 11:13 PM

Wow, the evils of Christianity are just as abundant as the good. Good luck with that argument.

It is certainly true that those who say they are Christians do evil, but Christianity as a religion that is equal parts evil and good is preposterous.

6-3-2008 11:14 PM

Antara:

Do you mind sharing your religious background with me?

6-4-2008 3:32 AM

Wow, the evils of Christianity are just as abundant as the good. Good luck with that argument.

The very purpose of "What's So Great About Christianity" by Dinesh is to counter the abundant evil that Christianity has perpetrated for centuries. It's the whole purpose for the book.

Dinesh is very well informed about the history of Christianity. And strangely, I find it interesting that most atheists are better informed about the history of Christianity than most Christians.

To say that "the evils of Christianity are just as abundant as the good" is out of kindness. Take a closer (or first) look at the history of Christianity. Dinesh's book is trying UNDO the historical ...

6-4-2008 12:55 PM

And strangely, I find it interesting that most atheists are better
informed about the history of Christianity than most Christians.

Wow! That is strange.

6-4-2008 1:15 PM

It doesn't counter the the ABUNDANT EVIL. It takes on a few of the lies and distortions. The purpose of the book is to remind people of why Western Civilization has come so far. His premise is that Juedo-Christian morality is the root of western societal thought. I have to say it is very convincing.

And I can tell you haven't read the book as he dedicates an entire chapter to debunking the myths you just mentioned, namely the "Galileo" story.

What most atheist and indeed many Christians think they know about some of the evils perpetrated by the Catholic Church and some protestant churches (witch trials) are easily rebutted with just a bit a of research.

6-4-2008 1:45 PM

And I can tell you haven't read the book as he dedicates an entire chapter to debunking the myths you just mentioned, namely the "Galileo" story.

The "myth" of the Inquisition? The "myth" of Galileo?

OK.

6-4-2008 5:27 PM

Antara

Sam, let's just say I have a checkered religious background, lol. I was raised in a religious family however, very Irish Catholic.

I am just completed year 2 of a four year degree in theology and philosophy, and yes, I was a believer when I started! Seems in my case that studying theology has led me down other roads.......maybe we can have a grand ole chat through email about this if you have a specific question, but I am not really into a Clipmarks free-for-all on my glaring religious faults

I have been loving every thing from the 'atheist' writers this past year, especially Sam Harris. It's all very new to me but I am enjoying learning all I can....however, I don't understand why so...

6-4-2008 6:56 PM

Antara, it is refreshing to hear someone of the atheistic persuasion express themselves so eloquently and rationally. I hope to hear more about how you arrive at your beliefs on this and/or other discussions. I think I share your reluctance at getting bogged down in the usual and sometime irrational free-for-alls that occur with such great regularity.
I would be very interested in hearing a coherent rational process about how one arrives at atheism which, in my mind, is just as much a belief as theism. My lines of discussion are on arriving at understanding and clearly defined differences. I'm not into persuasion so that is not my interest. I just love attempting to understand perspectives. I think this helps us all. Thanks.

6-4-2008 6:59 PM

righthand

I don't understand why someone who might not believe in a god, is automatically considered "left". I have come across many bloggers who are "right" politically, but still lack any god-belief.

It seems to me to be part of the American tagging system. If you tick a particular box then you are presumed to tick so many other. Comes with the one dimensional society of the melting pot.

6-4-2008 7:00 PM

By the way, I admire both Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. They are rational voices for atheism, but I think they fall painfully short of the rational process I generally look for. On the other hand, the third member of the Atheistic trinity, Dawkins, is out of that league.

6-5-2008 10:53 PM

Antara

I just love attempting to understand perspectives. I think this helps us all. Thanks.

Thanks to you too.

6-9-2008 7:48 PM

Well, I wouldn't call Christopher Hitchens rational, but I love his politics. lol. Antara, ex-Atheist here. Just didn't see the point however. Why believe in something that doesn't believe in something. Ah, well another discussion for another day.

Did y'all see Righthand trying to throw in a quick argument for cultural diversity? lol

Righthand, do you go up to people and ask them their background? "Excuse me sir, I need directions, but could you please celebrate your diversity for me first"

6-9-2008 7:52 PM

Sorry that was kind of snarky, Righthand. I am an American or Irish and Hopi Indian descent. I can be and American and be proud of my cultural background at the same time. We should be glad that we live in the West where this is possible. The cultural diversity crowd seems to be all about getting people to reject their American heritage. Seems silly to me. We should be proud of the countries we live in.

6-9-2008 7:53 PM

I am typing too fast. I hope you can make sense of that. lol

6-9-2008 9:39 PM

righthand

@Sillysam

Antara: Do you mind sharing your religious background with me?

... followed by ...

Righthand, do you go up to people and ask them their background? "Excuse me sir, I need directions, but could you please celebrate your diversity for me first"

... and after you asked someone their religious background??? Sillysam, don't worry about your typing speed. Get you brain into gear first.

Why the weird question to me about background? And after you ask someone else their religious background? Are you for real, Sillysam. It's all a silly game, is it? Well you have mystified me.

6-10-2008 11:02 PM