They have zero rights to do such deeds as far as I'm concerned. I couldn't give a rip about why they're doing it - I firmly believe that NONE of those compounds should be allowed and these men prosecuted to the highest level of the law. To be blunt - I'd execute ANYONE who's found guilty by jury abusing kids in ANY manner.

We should have zero tolerance when it comes to kids, one offense and you're out!

There shouldn't be any hiding behind any reason to let these people live. And if a certain religion insists that those are their rules - then I'd officially disband them as a criminal organization. Religion should be about faith of higher power, not abuse of children. We all agree (exce...

They have zero rights to do such deeds as far as I'm concerned. I couldn't give a rip about why they're doing it - I firmly believe that NONE of those compounds should be allowed and these men prosecuted to the highest level of the law. To be blunt - I'd execute ANYONE who's found guilty by jury abusing kids in ANY manner.

We should have zero tolerance when it comes to kids, one offense and you're out!

There shouldn't be any hiding behind any reason to let these people live. And if a certain religion insists that those are their rules - then I'd officially disband them as a criminal organization. Religion should be about faith of higher power, not abuse of children. We all agree (except for Ali lurking between the layers somewhere) that terrorism is unacceptable, regardless of their reasons why. Same should be applied here to these people.

But again, to me the criminality applies to individuals, not religion in general. Do I have a positive opinion of the Pope, based on his speeches & Catholicism in general? Absolutely. Would I do anything to the Catholic priests that abused kids over the years? I'd execute every one of them without thinking twice...

@RecordSage

They have zero rights to do such deeds as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure we all agree on this. But the question is, "What authority do they feel gives them this right?"

And if a certain religion insists that those are their rules - then I'd officially disband them as a criminal organization.

Again, I would agree. But you also say: "to me the criminality applies to individuals, not religion in general."

Agreed, not religion in general, but to that religion in specific, since if "those are their rules - then I'd officially disband them as a criminal organization."

Would you disband that religion if those ARE there rules (th...

@RecordSage

They have zero rights to do such deeds as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sure we all agree on this. But the question is, "What authority do they feel gives them this right?"

And if a certain religion insists that those are their rules - then I'd officially disband them as a criminal organization.

Again, I would agree. But you also say: "to me the criminality applies to individuals, not religion in general."

Agreed, not religion in general, but to that religion in specific, since if "those are their rules - then I'd officially disband them as a criminal organization."

Would you disband that religion if those ARE there rules (that religion being Mormonism)?

I know that most don't "practice" Mormonism as instructed in their scripture because they don't agree with secular law. But where do these people get their ideas that it's OK to take children as wives and betrove them as children and to consummate these arrangements? What in their minds makes it OK?

@AcesLucky - what justification any criminal has is irrelevant. Heck the old Helter Skelter man, who's still behind bars and trying to make parole every once in a while, also had all kinds of 'excuses' as why he did what he did. The reason is irrelevant AFAIC. To address your question - yes, I'd disband a religion if it actively promotes illegal behavior and ALL of the members of that religion actually PRACTICE it. I don't think it's a difficult thing to understand. The Bible, according to what I've heard (not a reader myself) condones stoning to death for certain offenses... obviously Christians don't practice such deeds as part of their life. Same with polygamy. Those who try to pra...

@AcesLucky - what justification any criminal has is irrelevant. Heck the old Helter Skelter man, who's still behind bars and trying to make parole every once in a while, also had all kinds of 'excuses' as why he did what he did. The reason is irrelevant AFAIC. To address your question - yes, I'd disband a religion if it actively promotes illegal behavior and ALL of the members of that religion actually PRACTICE it. I don't think it's a difficult thing to understand. The Bible, according to what I've heard (not a reader myself) condones stoning to death for certain offenses... obviously Christians don't practice such deeds as part of their life. Same with polygamy. Those who try to practice should be dealt with just as with anyone who may be breaking the law.

It's a fairly simple approach to dealing with this... just too bad the law enforcement in that area doesn't deal with it accordingly, as the case here clearly shows.

So, since no justification can be made for such behavior - it's no big leap to ban the institution.

Okay; I think you're saying not that we should punish (or even care about) the justification for the act, but rather we should punish the illegal "act" regardless the justification for it. Correct?

The reason this clarification (if I've got it right) was important is because, well, two things:

first - to disband the group suggests you aren't just punishing the act but the cause, the "justification" for the act, and so it would most definitely be relevant.

This is in relationship to your original comment to tabsey when you stated, " It's silly to drag rel...

So, since no justification can be made for such behavior - it's no big leap to ban the institution.

Okay; I think you're saying not that we should punish (or even care about) the justification for the act, but rather we should punish the illegal "act" regardless the justification for it. Correct?

The reason this clarification (if I've got it right) was important is because, well, two things:

first - to disband the group suggests you aren't just punishing the act but the cause, the "justification" for the act, and so it would most definitely be relevant.

This is in relationship to your original comment to tabsey when you stated, " It's silly to drag religion into this as the culprit.."

I think many of us do see religion as the culprit since it is the primary catalyst giving rise to the behavior. But not religion in general, just that particular strain of Mormonism.

And if you're standing pat on the disbanding part, I think we are in agreement with regard to the "cause" of the behavior, (which is that particular religion), otherwise why disband them? But that's why we drug religion into it.

second - (and we are all guilty as hell about this), but you are essentially saying that their religious beliefs or culture does not pass YOUR justification sensibilities, and therefore there is "no justification" for their behavior, when clearly for them there is.

Yes, we should prosecute them for breaking the law. Secular law should not recognize a person's religion or "justification". Again, it is the act that should be punished.

And again, if that's the case, we can't "justify" disbanding the group. But we can agree about the cause.

I think you're complicating a simple issue. Personally I believe most (sane at least) people know the difference between right and wrong. I'm not talking about what they advocate or how they behave, but they DO know. With that being stated, it's also safe to say that (some) people can and will do just about anything (lie, cheat, steal & worse) just to do something they feel like doing and they will come up with whatever justifications make them feel like it's ok, or ignore the need for justifications, but still - they certainly know what they're doing is wrong.

All of us are capable of being hitlers, just a question of which us aren't allowing ourselves to stoop low enough to act in suc...

I think you're complicating a simple issue. Personally I believe most (sane at least) people know the difference between right and wrong. I'm not talking about what they advocate or how they behave, but they DO know. With that being stated, it's also safe to say that (some) people can and will do just about anything (lie, cheat, steal & worse) just to do something they feel like doing and they will come up with whatever justifications make them feel like it's ok, or ignore the need for justifications, but still - they certainly know what they're doing is wrong.

All of us are capable of being hitlers, just a question of which us aren't allowing ourselves to stoop low enough to act in such a way. That goes for just about anything illegal, immoral etc.

The laws are put in place for a reason and either one is a nation of laws or one isn't. The people who break them get (and should be) punished. I happened to disagree with the level of punishment we have for some acts, but still overall - I haven't seen a better system for that many people anywhere else on this planet.

These people clearly broke existing laws and should be punished accordingly for such deeds. If their religion caused them to do so - I would be for eliminating its status as a religion. Obviously people can (and do unfortunately) believe in anything, regardless of whether it's legal, valid etc., but the state certainly can do its duty accordingly.

In this particular instance, even though it's clear that religion was a factor, it's not indicative of everyone in that religion practicing such acts, therefore you don't shut down the institution because of some deviants (otherwise you'd have to shut down all religions, including the atheist & secular crowds).

To sum up - I'd go back to my prior comment - most know what's wrong and what's right, regardless of what/whom they believe in and they certainly have the capacity to make choices. Of course that goes back to parenting, education etc.

Personally I believe most (sane at least) people know the difference between right and wrong.

I used to think that. In fact I would still love to believe that. But trust me on this, when religion is involved... right and wrong go right out the window!

From not seeking medical help for their children, to forcefully betroving them as children, to murder in the name of some damn god, to stoning or murdering their children because they fall in love with a fellow of a different faith; "honor killings" etc.. Oh trust me, RecordSage, religion makes simple right and wrong go bye-bye.

And because of that, yeah, religion is often the culprit.

but still - they ...

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Personally I believe most (sane at least) people know the difference between right and wrong.

I used to think that. In fact I would still love to believe that. But trust me on this, when religion is involved... right and wrong go right out the window!

From not seeking medical help for their children, to forcefully betroving them as children, to murder in the name of some damn god, to stoning or murdering their children because they fall in love with a fellow of a different faith; "honor killings" etc.. Oh trust me, RecordSage, religion makes simple right and wrong go bye-bye.

And because of that, yeah, religion is often the culprit.

but still - they certainly know what they're doing is wrong.

According to the law, to their religion, or to basic "secular" moral principles? Listen; some of these people actually believe, and do what their scriptures tell them.

These people clearly broke existing laws and should be punished accordingly for such deeds.

Damn right.

If their religion caused them to do so - I would be for eliminating its status as a religion.

And that's where I had to draw the distinction. Now YOU are forcing your moral values on someone else. You are telling them they can't have their religion because their values are against your sensibilities (against secular law).

Fortunately we have a right to whatever religion we want, or none; but we may not break secular law. And that's the line of distinction.

We are fundamentally in agreement, except I cannot vouch for disbanding the religion. I support freedom of worship, belief, thought and deed -- as long it doesn't harm another or another's property. But then... my moral values are clearly secular.

They can have their religion, but they cannot break the law.

I agree with you on most points. Religion, like anything else, can be good (look at the Ten Commandments - nothing wrong with that) and certainly can be a positive force. But it's like anything else - it can be abused as easily as used. I have no problem with religion when it's being used to better one self and help cope with life as we know it. I do have huge problem with anything that abuses kids in any manner. I'm for letting parents go to church, if they wish, and do whatever. But once these parents wind up losing their child due to them being unwilling to use modern medicine when one's a requirement - that's criminal behavior as far as I'm concerned and if the child dies because o...

I agree with you on most points. Religion, like anything else, can be good (look at the Ten Commandments - nothing wrong with that) and certainly can be a positive force. But it's like anything else - it can be abused as easily as used. I have no problem with religion when it's being used to better one self and help cope with life as we know it. I do have huge problem with anything that abuses kids in any manner. I'm for letting parents go to church, if they wish, and do whatever. But once these parents wind up losing their child due to them being unwilling to use modern medicine when one's a requirement - that's criminal behavior as far as I'm concerned and if the child dies because of it - I'm totally for removing the parents from their parental duties... permanently (this is where capital punishment comes in handy). I don't really see a difference between such a deed and premeditated murder. So, I agree with you on a point like this one - I would NOT allow any institution to preach such behavior.

They can have their religion, but they cannot break the law.

Absolutely!!!