It seems that all 3 of the major 'religions' are expecting a Messiah. I was not aware of Ahmadinejad's eschatology.

jatfla, a little knowledge never hurts.

It also doesn't hurt to keep the generalization in check until one really "knows".

The Shia sect of Islam (which is a minority among Muslims) have various sects within. However, they all believe in divinely appointed IMAMS after the final Prophet (Imams are leaders unlike Pope). The majority among the Shia sect is 12er Shias. They only believe in 12 Imams after the Prophet of Islam, all divinely appointed one after another, from father to son. Their belief in their 12th Imam is in his occultation. But not all Shia...

It seems that all 3 of the major 'religions' are expecting a Messiah. I was not aware of Ahmadinejad's eschatology.

jatfla, a little knowledge never hurts.

It also doesn't hurt to keep the generalization in check until one really "knows".

The Shia sect of Islam (which is a minority among Muslims) have various sects within. However, they all believe in divinely appointed IMAMS after the final Prophet (Imams are leaders unlike Pope). The majority among the Shia sect is 12er Shias. They only believe in 12 Imams after the Prophet of Islam, all divinely appointed one after another, from father to son. Their belief in their 12th Imam is in his occultation. But not all Shia sects are awaiting or expecting the Messiah and the distinction between them is very critical.

My info comes from this man. I have heard him interviewed a number of times. I have also corroborated wih other information. It seems to me the information I have ascertained, while limited, is based in view held widely by people that know. Arifsali, with all do respect, I am used to your bias in this area. Especially as it pertained to a discussion we had a while back about taquiyya. This is also a belief held by a specific sect that encourages lying "to achieve the mission". Now, you seem to consistently push a escoteric view. One that cannot be fully understood by "outsiders". Ignorance is a relative thing and actions and words do n...

My info comes from this man. I have heard him interviewed a number of times. I have also corroborated wih other information. It seems to me the information I have ascertained, while limited, is based in view held widely by people that know. Arifsali, with all do respect, I am used to your bias in this area. Especially as it pertained to a discussion we had a while back about taquiyya. This is also a belief held by a specific sect that encourages lying "to achieve the mission". Now, you seem to consistently push a escoteric view. One that cannot be fully understood by "outsiders". Ignorance is a relative thing and actions and words do not have to be understood through the prism of Islam to be understood.

bignosemousie

"However, the twelvers believe that they can hasten the Mahdi's return by creating war and chaos.."

And the Christians that want to hasten the second coming is different how? Even their method appears to be the same.

---

I admit ignorance: what's the difference between the return of the Mahdi and the return of the Christ?

arifsali

There is no difference. That return is way too long in coming and you and I have no chance to be witnessing it during our lifetime, so it is a moot point.

"There is no difference." Meaning - both are failed prophecies? Or meaning - they both are going to happen but far in the future?

When you say "yo...

bignosemousie

"However, the twelvers believe that they can hasten the Mahdi's return by creating war and chaos.."

And the Christians that want to hasten the second coming is different how? Even their method appears to be the same.

---

I admit ignorance: what's the difference between the return of the Mahdi and the return of the Christ?

arifsali

There is no difference. That return is way too long in coming and you and I have no chance to be witnessing it during our lifetime, so it is a moot point.

"There is no difference." Meaning - both are failed prophecies? Or meaning - they both are going to happen but far in the future?

When you say "you and I have no chance to be witnessing it during our lifetime", it appears you are suggesting that these things are going to take place.

I don't know much about the Koran, but the bible states many times that the second coming of Christ was very near to when the words were spoken.

In other words, it never happened. Even if Christ showed up today, the biblical reference would be false.

If there is "no difference", are you saying the coming of the Mahdi is also false? (Or at least made in the same vein?)

First Arifsali, the Christians you say exist that want to hasten the reuturn of Christ is different because there is no global effort on their part to inflict mass carnage. I am a Christian and I know of NO Christians that want to "hasten" anything. In fact, it is in my understanding that it is non-Christian to insist that it is possible to hasten the return of Christ. So, you are really grasping at straws with your constant attempts to equate the actions of jihadist Muslims to Christians, however nutty some may be.
I do not understand your constant attack on Christians, as if they, in some way, are equal to the global jihadists. It is such a petty retort. Meaningless.
Let's just agree th...

First Arifsali, the Christians you say exist that want to hasten the reuturn of Christ is different because there is no global effort on their part to inflict mass carnage. I am a Christian and I know of NO Christians that want to "hasten" anything. In fact, it is in my understanding that it is non-Christian to insist that it is possible to hasten the return of Christ. So, you are really grasping at straws with your constant attempts to equate the actions of jihadist Muslims to Christians, however nutty some may be.
I do not understand your constant attack on Christians, as if they, in some way, are equal to the global jihadists. It is such a petty retort. Meaningless.
Let's just agree that the issue regarding Jihadists and militant Islam has nothing to do with Christianity and leave Christians out of it.
Can we just discuss the real threat and issue without pretending that Christians are somehow an equal threat? It is a ridiculous assertion.
If Christians were blowing themselves up and killing innocent people, then we can put it back on the table, but until then, please stop.

Arifsali said:

Not all 12er Shias "believe" in hastening or creating war or chaos because not all 12er Shias live under one dominion state.

you guys can do lot better by educating yourself a little on matters of diverse nature.

I took your advice, Arifsali. I found this information regarding the Hojjatieh society. And here is another viewpoint.

As I've researched (not just those links) it seems that Hojjatieh is one sect of 12ers that may or may not believe in hastening the Mahdi's return. Some people are concerned that the current Iranian administrati...

Arifsali said:

Not all 12er Shias "believe" in hastening or creating war or chaos because not all 12er Shias live under one dominion state.

you guys can do lot better by educating yourself a little on matters of diverse nature.

I took your advice, Arifsali. I found this information regarding the Hojjatieh society. And here is another viewpoint.

As I've researched (not just those links) it seems that Hojjatieh is one sect of 12ers that may or may not believe in hastening the Mahdi's return. Some people are concerned that the current Iranian administration is involved in this society, others believe it is a smear campaign against Ahmadinejad.

How am I doing so far? I will take you up on your better sources if you will give them to me.

If you are "hasten" on linking Islam with the arrival of Jesus, then I think I'm wasting my time here.

I'm not sure what you mean here. I wasn't linking Islam with the arrival of Jesus. You mentioned:

I'm no expert in Islam but I think I know a little. Never heard of any such thing in my life.

And I had never heard of it either before Willhelm mentioned it. I just looked around and found that website. I asked for someone to explain that to me, as I'm no scholar on Islam.

For what it is worth, here is what Wikipedia says (of course, any yahoo can write stuff in there):

Most Muslims believe that Jesus will descend before the Day of Judgment and will slay al-Masīh al-Dajjāl (literally "the Deceiving Messiah," loosely the Antichrist; often referred to simply as "Dajjāl") at the Gate of Ludd in Palestine, They also believe that he will marry, die and be buried in the Masjid al Nabawi. During his life, he will have revealed that Islam is the true religion of God.

If you can help

bignosemousie, glad to see that we have some serious seekers of knowledge. I must confess that I don't know much either so I'm also learning. I sure wasn't aware of this anti-bahai group. I'm somewhat familiar with Bahais as they were severely persecuted and expelled from Iran.

My only gripe has been that people usually lump different and various sects into one or two labels. There are vast differences among many. We already know that 12er Shias believe in the occult Imam but you should also know that Ismaili Shias do not believe in occult Imam and are not waiting for anyone as their Imam is apparent and alive in all ages, even today...

bignosemousie, glad to see that we have some serious seekers of knowledge. I must confess that I don't know much either so I'm also learning. I sure wasn't aware of this anti-bahai group. I'm somewhat familiar with Bahais as they were severely persecuted and expelled from Iran.

My only gripe has been that people usually lump different and various sects into one or two labels. There are vast differences among many. We already know that 12er Shias believe in the occult Imam but you should also know that Ismaili Shias do not believe in occult Imam and are not waiting for anyone as their Imam is apparent and alive in all ages, even today

According to one saying of last Prophet of Islam, there are supposedly 72 sects within Islam, but I really don't think that is true right now.

wilhelm, you are accusing me of saying that there are Christian who are hastening the return of Christ. In fact, I have never said this nor do I hold this opinion.

This thread started out with jatfla claiming her ignorance on the views of Shias theology of the return of Mahdi. It then turned to "other" Muslim's belief of return of Christ.

Let me summarize my position again:

If there are Muslims who believe in the return of Christ, then so be it. People believe whatever they want to believe, and I shouldn't be the one telling them they shouldn't believe in something.

If there are people hastening the return of Mahdi or Christ then so be it. All the more power to them.

I just care to ...

wilhelm, you are accusing me of saying that there are Christian who are hastening the return of Christ. In fact, I have never said this nor do I hold this opinion.

This thread started out with jatfla claiming her ignorance on the views of Shias theology of the return of Mahdi. It then turned to "other" Muslim's belief of return of Christ.

Let me summarize my position again:

If there are Muslims who believe in the return of Christ, then so be it. People believe whatever they want to believe, and I shouldn't be the one telling them they shouldn't believe in something.

If there are people hastening the return of Mahdi or Christ then so be it. All the more power to them.

I just care to keep things in context when it comes to diverse interpretations in Islam. Islam is not a monolithic religion as some wrongly believe it to be. That is all I care right now.

@willhelm

You commented that you're Christian but that you know nothing about any "hastening" the return of Christ.

I believe you. The question was in response to bignosemousie who said the twelvers believed they could "hasten" the return of the Mahdi.

I was simply inquiring if there was a difference between they and the Christians who want to "hasten" the return of Christ.

PS: There are at least 500,000 references to the "hastening" by Christians. Couple of examples here:


"I am just one follower of Christ whose purpose, I believe, is to help hasten the return of Christ."
source: [url=http://www.roadtobetterliving.com/- HTML/about us.html]Road to Believing[/url]

What Saith the S...

@willhelm

You commented that you're Christian but that you know nothing about any "hastening" the return of Christ.

I believe you. The question was in response to bignosemousie who said the twelvers believed they could "hasten" the return of the Mahdi.

I was simply inquiring if there was a difference between they and the Christians who want to "hasten" the return of Christ.

PS: There are at least 500,000 references to the "hastening" by Christians. Couple of examples here:


"I am just one follower of Christ whose purpose, I believe, is to help hasten the return of Christ."
source: [url=http://www.roadtobetterliving.com/- HTML/about us.html]Road to Believing[/url]

What Saith the Scripture?

Hastening the LORD's Return

"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God"

(2Peter 3:12). http://www.WhatSaithTheScripture.com/

Etc. Etc...

Just key in 'hasten return of christ' or anything like that in Google, and you'll come up with about 500,000 pages that reference it. Etc. Etc.

I don't think there's a need for a 'debate' arifsali. My only interest in people like the nazis or islamofascists is purely for historical reference, to remember what was done and assist where possible from preventing it to happen again. I have zero interest in getting to know the psyche, culture etc. of people like hitler, or bin laden or the lowlife that slit Daniel Pearl's throat.

If you are a muslim and you denounce such acts without a hesitation and tell me that this is totally wrong and then want to educate me about your accomplishments (the positive kind, something good for humanity) - then I'm all ears, I'd love to hear it, love to see it etc. But to try to 'understand' where the...

I don't think there's a need for a 'debate' arifsali. My only interest in people like the nazis or islamofascists is purely for historical reference, to remember what was done and assist where possible from preventing it to happen again. I have zero interest in getting to know the psyche, culture etc. of people like hitler, or bin laden or the lowlife that slit Daniel Pearl's throat.

If you are a muslim and you denounce such acts without a hesitation and tell me that this is totally wrong and then want to educate me about your accomplishments (the positive kind, something good for humanity) - then I'm all ears, I'd love to hear it, love to see it etc. But to try to 'understand' where these killers are coming from and somehow justify their actions - there's NOTHING they tell me to justify those kinds of acts... absolutely NOTHING, so it would be a total waste of time for both of us to debate it.

To me an example of a shia is ah-i-got-a-job... what he preaches, their death squads in Iraq etc. All of that has to stop for me to change my mind on the subject, debate or not. sunnis don't seem much better, you have saddam (had, sorry), and our distinguished ali with his sentiments.

Before you stop me and tell me these are few examples and it's wrong to stereotype with so few... I'd like to see ONE, just 1 Shia or Sunni who would denounce terrorism and indicate that their religion and sects within it are NOT what people like bin laden represent. Just one... haven't seen them so far... still waiting. I'd love to have a different take on these folks than I do, but I see no evidence of it existing and thus... the sentiments stay.

I'd like to see ONE, just 1 Shia or Sunni who would denounce terrorism and indicate that their religion and sects within it are NOT what people like bin laden represent. Just one

RS, why do I think we have gone down this route before and I have shown you not one but more than one such examples. Nope, not again, especially not on your turf when you're asking what you have already asked, and I have answered what I have already answered.

You see, the problem here is that you are asking two different questions again under the same roof: (1) why does evil does what evil does, and I have no interest in understanding evil, (2) show me something I have already seen, and I have no i...

I'd like to see ONE, just 1 Shia or Sunni who would denounce terrorism and indicate that their religion and sects within it are NOT what people like bin laden represent. Just one

RS, why do I think we have gone down this route before and I have shown you not one but more than one such examples. Nope, not again, especially not on your turf when you're asking what you have already asked, and I have answered what I have already answered.

You see, the problem here is that you are asking two different questions again under the same roof: (1) why does evil does what evil does, and I have no interest in understanding evil, (2) show me something I have already seen, and I have no interest in understanding what I have already seen.

Seems like a trolling to me.

As I said already, perhaps some other time.