 invictus says: Gunpowder smells in the air... It was only a matter of time before the powder keg we've set fire to began to spread across the region. That kind of macho talk is not reassuring, at least not to me. Invictus, we talked about this a year ago. You know I knew this was coming. What people seem to dismiss is the timing and the fact that Turkey and the US are allies. There are tails wagging the dog on these turns of events, Invictus. Pelosi's and the actions of allies in congress are not accidental. Notice how success in Iraq is becoming a foregone conclusion? I have a question. Given the political shifting taking place in Turkey, can the Bush administration (please leave hate and politics out of it) appease the actions of Turkey ? Do those in Turkey know that their actions will result in them coming down on the side against the US and create havoc for the region. Like I said to... "Did they seek permission from anyone when they came from a distance of 10,000 kilometers and hit Iraq?" he said. "We do not need anyone else's advice."I have to agree. even when the UN disagreed with them, the US still invaded. IMO, they have no right whatsoever to tell Turkey what they can and cannot do in this case. If Turkey proceeds with their threats, it is my view there will be no tuning back from the region plummeting into chaos.It's not in chaos now? Huh.. i guess almost daily bombings, clashes, etc must be peaceful eh? In the last 24 hours alone: - Car bomb in Iraq kills at least 10 - Three journalists killed in Iraq - Attack on Polish military base in Iraq kills five As for the recent "victory" against Al-Qaeda, I remember another "mission accomplished" that wasn't so true. While AQ may be quieting down in Iraq, they seem to be getting more bold & forceful in Afghanistan, that other place the US invaded... You know, where Bin Laudin actually struck from? The US didn't fi... Of course, Turkey may be forced to act because the PKK well have being emboldened by the Kurdish political parties that exist to create an independent Kurdistan. The U.S. was warned that this could happen, but if the U.S. acts against the PKK and other cross border raiders (who are also attacking into Iran, but to some thats not such a bad thing), it gains th enmity of the Kurds and of the Peshmerga, making them their enemies and making Iraq "experiment" in neo-colonialism a total failure. But if the U.S. can't reign in the PKK and their political supporters then Turkey may be forced to act (or the current goverment in Ankara, facing problems of its own both internal and with the EU) will... I think the U.S. will decide to execute a staged withdrawal if Turkey decides to invade. This will allow for: (1) An occupying force to keep the region stable. (2) An excuse to withdraw without seeming to "abandon the mission." All the U.S. has to say is that we withdrew for diplomatic reasons, but that the region is still under the control of a responsible ally. This may be a stroke of pure genius on the part of the Bush administration. We disentangle from the Iraq war, and let Turkey clean the mess up. The real threat is not Turkey. Turkey is not completely intent in causing problems for the US....Yet. The problem is Iran, which is a lot more engaged on the border than Turkey. The recent actions by Congress, which was a blatant attempt to humiliate Turkey, are only causing to pour salt on the wound. The next time thousands of Turks take to the street to protest the advance of Islamic government may not end so peacefully. The problem is not short term. The problem regarding Turkey is long term proble. One of which I doubt anyone here at CM, outside of Invictus of Napster, is even aware. TCW, You have no idea what chaos is if you think now is as bad as it can get. Like I said earlier about the timing - This is all taking place now because American success in Iraq has become a foregone conclusion. Really and your evidence for such a foregone conclusion is? And no, Turkey is not going to take over Iraq, they just want to crush any thoughts of Kurdistan and are willing to invade to do it. Considering that the Kurds are the strongest allies the U.S. has within what remains of Iraq, this is not good. TCW, You have no idea what chaos is if you think now is as bad as it can get. Like I said earlier about the timing - This is all taking place now because American success in Iraq has become a foregone conclusion.Northern Iraq was one of the real 'quiet' places in that hell hole. Syria couldn't stand it neither could Iran or Turkey. Notice how quiet Syria is after Israel just swept in and bombed thier little 'project'. Many of the insurgents coming into Iraq have come from Syria as well. I think Turkey has probably the worst timing of any country I have seen to date. Maybe they will send in their troops and suffer heavy losses and run home like some others want the U.S. to do. So you want the Turks to suffer heavy casualties? So you want the Turks to suffer heavy casualties?No, but that's EXACTLY what the leftist anti-war crowd wants of the U.S. in Iraq. "Good news out of Iraq is bad for the democratic party". Oh really? And how do figure that? Wow. I've been away from Clipmarks just for 12 hours and there are more than a dozen new comments here. Thanks to all fellow clippers; all comments make very important points and worth to be discussed. Please give me a little time (until tomorrow) and I'll join you here with my comments. (Willhelm, I do remember what we talked a long time ago. Things are going really scary here.) btw, probably some of you have already seen my clip, Wordpress.com is blocked once again in Turkey a few hours ago. I almost forgot this which sums it all up.- "In a rare but revealing slip, Democratic Congressman James Clyburn said that an American victory in Iraq "would be a real big problem for us" in the 2008 elections." So the guy is a moron, nice paint job there. willhelm said:I never said that this is as bad as it could get.. in fact in my comment I belive I elaborated that it could get worse. The point of my comment (try and pay attention here) was that the US has no right to tell Turkey that they can't invade without permission, as they themselves did the same thing... the UN was against the war, and the US ignored them and everyone else who spoke against it and invaded anyway (on a pack of lies to boot). Thanks for paying attention though  The point of my comment (try and pay attention here) was that the US has no right to tell Turkey that they can't invade without permission, as they themselves did the same thing... the UN was against the war, and the US ignored them and everyone else who spoke against it and invaded anyway (on a pack of lies to boot).TG, some sense. Willhelm, at first I must say the current problem is beyond the "political shift" in Turkey. Cross border operation to Northern Iraq is not AKP government's decision; actually Erdogan and his mentors are against such an action. But there are some very powerful "forces" in Turkey that even a PM can't risk to be at the opposite side. The so-called "rising nationalism" in the country has been directed buy such "power that be" and since Erdogan and AKP admins are simply hypocrites, they choose to "obey". Any person with common sense would say, invading Northern Iraq would be a very big mistake and is unacceptable (so was USA's Iraq invasion.) But there are some very interesting "incitements" he... I'm afraid, there is more to this story. Some of them, are about Turkey's recent internal political clashes and "power balances" and some of them about USA's foreign relations strategies (with the internal problems.) A new war in the region which would somewhat include Turkey in it, would only bring a disaster - not only to the Middle East and Turkey, but to the world as well. I sense bad smells here and worry about the recent things. Thanks for the insight Invictus. Thanks, Invictus. I agree there is a mysterious force. I have been studying up on the benefits Russia would have in a play between the Kurds and Iran, along with a parlay against Israel. There are clearly some opportunistic regional plays being made. I think it is clear that there is an attempt by Russia and Iran to make things very difficult for the US. Iran and Russia are certainly relevant and the Kurds are probably the pawns. If Russia comes out and says a US attack on Iranian Nuclear facilities will be an attack on Russia, then I will know I was certainly right. The odds of that happening are quite unclear. Personally, I think Turkey's biggest mistake was not allowing US troops in inva... I believe the did the right thing. After all who would want to get involved in the mess that is now Iraq? That and the polls showed that people where against the idea of going into Iraq or allowing their territory to be used as a launching pad for an invasion of a neighbor. Mind you, the U.S. has full run of "NATO" facilities inside Turkey, mainly Incirlik Air Base, so it not like the northern door is closed. the U.S. has full run of "NATO" facilities inside Turkey, mainly Incirlik Air Base, so it not like the northern door is closed.Not for troops or miltary actions. Supplies. And how pray tell do you keep 180,000 troops going? And Incirlick is also where Air Force missions are launched into Iraq. They could have said no to anything and just be done with it. They had no obligation to assist the U.S. in the invasion of Iraq (and being a NATO member doesn't count, NATO is a defensive treaty organization and Iraq did not attack the U.S. or any NATO member). Ratilfar, your not even on point. You're just aguing for the sake of argument. You babble and have no clue what you are babbling about. Supplies weren't even the issue in the first 2 weeks of the war. They are NOW and that is different point entirely. I am arguing an alternate point, one that you don't seem to grasp. Turkey did not allow the U.S. to use their territory as a spring board for the 4th Infantry Division (although forces where deployed to the North, not all that Central Command). However they supported and still continue to support American operations in the region. My point is that the Turks where smart (or diplomatic) in their approach. They did not allow the country to be used as an invasion route, but have allowed the U.S. to operate in its territory in support of the occupation. |
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