I'm not aware of the Howard put-down either. Guess it wasn't reported over here. It would be interesting to know exactly what he said.

The way the Aussie's always give a hand to the USA and stand by it's side is a great and wonderful thing. Sometimes you remind me of the more pioneering and positive images of America's early days.

I hate to tell ya, though, mate, this ain't the same America that fought World War Two. It's sad to see the way it has gone rotten and sour since then.

Perhaps it is time for Australia to think more carefully about what U.S. military adventures you get into. Back here they point to Aussie support as saying we're doing right..we're doing right, you know, we have ...

I'm not aware of the Howard put-down either. Guess it wasn't reported over here. It would be interesting to know exactly what he said.

The way the Aussie's always give a hand to the USA and stand by it's side is a great and wonderful thing. Sometimes you remind me of the more pioneering and positive images of America's early days.

I hate to tell ya, though, mate, this ain't the same America that fought World War Two. It's sad to see the way it has gone rotten and sour since then.

Perhaps it is time for Australia to think more carefully about what U.S. military adventures you get into. Back here they point to Aussie support as saying we're doing right..we're doing right, you know, we have all this support.

But other than Britain and Australia there is no real support, no real 'coalition,' at all.

Maybe, thus, deciding more carefully, on a case-by-case basis --- in these modern times -- might be more in your true national interest, as well as ours.

Blind loyalty may no longer be the way to go.

Obama is okay though. But, indeed, he's probably not a 'Jack-boot Johnny," type of guy but he's not so dumb as to put down or discount the worth and valor of the great Australian people.

I guess I'll have to 'deeply,' apologize; and I do.

But my intention was not in any way to disparage those who follow the orders of their nation and die or suffer in battle.

Perhaps, though, "you should just let the US get itself out of it's own mess and leave." Other nations have done so.

Doing so would help shorten the war. It would indicate less approval for this war.

Poland was the last to go, this month.

My point?

Bush has used the willingness of many good nations to join with the USA in this war as one of the excuses, one of the reasons to sell it to the American people.

Calling it a Coalition, and not just America on it's own, has helped sell the war.

If Bush said the USA wa...

I guess I'll have to 'deeply,' apologize; and I do.

But my intention was not in any way to disparage those who follow the orders of their nation and die or suffer in battle.

Perhaps, though, "you should just let the US get itself out of it's own mess and leave." Other nations have done so.

Doing so would help shorten the war. It would indicate less approval for this war.

Poland was the last to go, this month.

My point?

Bush has used the willingness of many good nations to join with the USA in this war as one of the excuses, one of the reasons to sell it to the American people.

Calling it a Coalition, and not just America on it's own, has helped sell the war.

If Bush said the USA was going into this war all by themselves it may never have happened.

Unilateral starting of a war remains a hard sell to the American people, but tell them it is UN approved...

... or tell then there are 39 other nations who have signed up to join the fight! -- well, then folks must think the war must be okay, with so much international support.

Also, throughout all the reporting of this war Bush and the media talks about "Coalition" actions...like, the 'Coalition,' blew up 40 innocent civilians today, when, in reality, it was USA troops, so this charade of a Coalition is used as an excuse.

Of course it is no hoax to you.

Nor to those who died from the UK, South Korea, Australia, Poland, Romania, Denmark, etc., but other than these nations listed here the none of the other 33 nations had more than 400 troops sent to Iraq....and some sent less than 10.

If it's a Coalition, it's a bit of an artificial and unequal coalition, isn't it?
(The U.S. has approx. 150,000 regular troops and approx 150,000 mercenaries and civilians in Iraq)

Is this really a war than Denmark wants to fight?

Or is this a USA war and it's dragged others into it?

Is this a good war to be in?

(Note: The U.S. flew in 2,000 troops from Georgia into Iraq, before flying them back to face Russia)

:-|

Is this really a war than Denmark wants to fight?

Or is this a USA war and it's dragged others into it?

Is this a good war to be in?

No, yes and no. People here don't even understand why we're still in Afghanistan, they want us to leave, but I don't know if we're "allowed" to. I think we have obligations to NATO. Powell's speech to the UN was probably what got us involved. We got out of Iraq when the lies became evident, but in Afghanistan, we thought we were going after Bin Laden. Now we can't really see why we still "helping" since. Bin Laden doesn't seem to be a priority and the fighting going on now, is more directed at the US for the way they behave around the world, t...

Is this really a war than Denmark wants to fight?

Or is this a USA war and it's dragged others into it?

Is this a good war to be in?

No, yes and no. People here don't even understand why we're still in Afghanistan, they want us to leave, but I don't know if we're "allowed" to. I think we have obligations to NATO. Powell's speech to the UN was probably what got us involved. We got out of Iraq when the lies became evident, but in Afghanistan, we thought we were going after Bin Laden. Now we can't really see why we still "helping" since. Bin Laden doesn't seem to be a priority and the fighting going on now, is more directed at the US for the way they behave around the world, than fighting people who "hate us for our freedom". We don't believe a word of it.

@thisnamecantbetaken, masbury, chedare.

It was quoted: "If any of our politicians went along with the war knowing better, their heads will roll."

HELP MAKE THEIR HEADS ROLL!

__________________________________
Do everything you can to help makes their heads roll.

This is a thread that when you start pulling on it it will get longer and longer and what's it's connected to will eventually unravel.

And these deliberately know and used lies of all these military intelligence agencies is what we'd call a 'Smoking Gun." and when you find out who's hands this gun was in, the warmongers and those who betrayed your nation with lies will be revealed.

This truth can explode like a bomb - and l...

@thisnamecantbetaken, masbury, chedare.

It was quoted: "If any of our politicians went along with the war knowing better, their heads will roll."

HELP MAKE THEIR HEADS ROLL!

__________________________________
Do everything you can to help makes their heads roll.

This is a thread that when you start pulling on it it will get longer and longer and what's it's connected to will eventually unravel.

And these deliberately know and used lies of all these military intelligence agencies is what we'd call a 'Smoking Gun." and when you find out who's hands this gun was in, the warmongers and those who betrayed your nation with lies will be revealed.

This truth can explode like a bomb - and lead to a change in policies and politicians.

Yea..______________________________

BINGO! This is one of the most exciting series of posts I've ever seen!

This, quote below, sure hits the bull's-eye
"It's because they just want the US out of their lands and out of their business and their hands off their resources. Change American foreign policy and respect other countries instead and the "war on terror" would be over.

The summary of Colin Powell's role (and how he was fooled) also spot on, I believe. -- I'll add that he had a true Brutus in his own office, Deputy Secretary Richard Armitage, a card-carrying neocon.

In 2,000 characters or less, this is the quick story: Bush asked the CIA to make up a link claiming Saddam Hussein was trying to make Weapons of Mass Destruction.

This phony claim was sent to CIA in Rome; they got it printed in an Italian newspaper.

The Brits claim they read this Italian newspaper, they claim they discovered the CIA documents linking Saddam to WMD's ( phony documents). They got these claims and documents printed in one of their newspapers, the Telegraph.

The CIA they claimed it read this story in the Telegraph and reported it to Bush, the nation as true.

And - NOW REVEALED- false information also spread in Denmark!

Hunt this truth down!

Did you know about this?
Frank Grevil

Anýway, here's from yesterday:

http://bloganova.blogspot.com/2008/10/washing-iraq-off-their-hands.html

Try google "FE Dansk Folkeparti". That where we are today. Now... mixed up in all this is also the CIA extraordinary rendition flights. DK only JUST got a reply from the US, after we have waited forever for an explanation and they "refuse to answer" if they have or have not, flown captives through our airspace. Also mixed up in it is, that the mass graves in Kosovo, that got us into THAT war, were also a lie. I haven't had time to connect all the dots yet myself, With the ar on Iraq, it's said that th...

Did you know about this?
Frank Grevil

Anýway, here's from yesterday:

http://bloganova.blogspot.com/2008/10/washing-iraq-off-their-hands.html

Try google "FE Dansk Folkeparti". That where we are today. Now... mixed up in all this is also the CIA extraordinary rendition flights. DK only JUST got a reply from the US, after we have waited forever for an explanation and they "refuse to answer" if they have or have not, flown captives through our airspace. Also mixed up in it is, that the mass graves in Kosovo, that got us into THAT war, were also a lie. I haven't had time to connect all the dots yet myself, With the ar on Iraq, it's said that the FE did say, the intelligence was "with reservations" but that is not what our "right wing Bush buddy) Fogh Rasmuseen said to US when he got us into war.

Here's what Søren Espersen (DF) said today:

"Jeg forstår ikke, hvordan de samme folk kan blive siddende på deres poster efter to så gigantiske brølere. Der må rulle hoveder, og der må en intern storvask til i FE," siger han.

Which means: "I don't understand how these people can stay at their jobs after such gigantic errors. Heads must roll and there must be a purge of the intelligence agency."

That's exactly what I said. He says there must be consequences for those responsible. Today a majority in the gov voted that an large scale investigation must take place about the reasons for the Iraq war. (DF) called on our foreign minister today, to reply to, if we all should trust ANY western intelligence agencies any more. The "answer will be given" on November 12th and the next step will be decided from there. Anyway, we're just a little country, but we're trying. Us lefties have been screaming bloody murder forever, but you know how hard it is to get people to listen. Poke around a bit yourself. It's all quite "exciting".

About this false intelligence, there's a good wikipedia about it, at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries

Far from being a "crazy conspiracy story," think of it more like a fact; like an awesome spy story (and we still don't know the ending).

It's complicated. It's deliberately complicated.

In the USA there was and continues to be a story for years: "The Wilson-Plame CIA Leak Affair," or the "CIA leak scandal," or other terms like that.

Wilson is a former USA Ambassador. He's the one who first said this intelligence about Yellow cake, Niger, attempting to link it to WMD's in Iraq is false.

So, it's not a crazy conspiracy. It's first revealed and emphatically claimed as...

About this false intelligence, there's a good wikipedia about it, at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries

Far from being a "crazy conspiracy story," think of it more like a fact; like an awesome spy story (and we still don't know the ending).

It's complicated. It's deliberately complicated.

In the USA there was and continues to be a story for years: "The Wilson-Plame CIA Leak Affair," or the "CIA leak scandal," or other terms like that.

Wilson is a former USA Ambassador. He's the one who first said this intelligence about Yellow cake, Niger, attempting to link it to WMD's in Iraq is false.

So, it's not a crazy conspiracy. It's first revealed and emphatically claimed as false intel by a former USA ambassador.

From this point on even the names are made deliberately confusing, who's married to who is made deliberately confusing, who exposed Plame as a CIA agent is made deliberately confusing, etc.

(A White House aide named 'Scotter' Libby was the only one so far arrested and convicted for his involvement in this plot, smear campaigns, cover-ups, the making of the false intelligence, etc.)

Note: VP Cheney had to be behind and involved in this is some way. Maybe Bush, too. But Cheney 4sure.

A paragraph in mainstream (conservative) UK Telegraph is a good one paragraph introduction to this spy story that led to the war in Iraq

QUOTE
"A row has broken out between France and Italy over whose intelligence service is to blame for the Niger uranium controversy, which led to Britain and America claiming wrongly that Saddam Hussein was trying to buy material for nuclear bombs."
END QUOTE

See, at: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/1471055/Italy-blames-France-for-Niger-uranium-claim.html

UM...I believe CIA made it up. This article says the French made it up. As I said: It's a deliberately tangled tale.

ANOTHER Article , at:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/02/AR2007040201777.html

@thisname..Ha ha I think you got the larrikin bit of the Aussie in you,,and in same lighthearted vain about why there is fall off of suicide bombers,,word got round maybe that they run out of virgins in paradise.Oops but for our live and let live tolerance of others cultural beliefs, you dont expect to go for a holiday in Bali and get fried.
The Afgans have have always resisted occupiers BUT if they provide training grounds and export archaic war on Yanks and west ,I feel a moral obligation to support the US to an extent finish the job.UK abandoned Australia to Japs in WW11 our dad @ dave Army met them in take no prisoner bloodshed in New Guinea first time thier land army defeated, my fathe...

@thisname..Ha ha I think you got the larrikin bit of the Aussie in you,,and in same lighthearted vain about why there is fall off of suicide bombers,,word got round maybe that they run out of virgins in paradise.Oops but for our live and let live tolerance of others cultural beliefs, you dont expect to go for a holiday in Bali and get fried.
The Afgans have have always resisted occupiers BUT if they provide training grounds and export archaic war on Yanks and west ,I feel a moral obligation to support the US to an extent finish the job.UK abandoned Australia to Japs in WW11 our dad @ dave Army met them in take no prisoner bloodshed in New Guinea first time thier land army defeated, my father scared us as kids when he woke in the horrors.This turning other cheek stuff is BS,sorry! We suffer to this day after affects of mental impact. Bush didnt help local relations with Muslim nations to north by calling us" US Deputy in SE Asia "ha ha ha but then our happy-go-larry lifestyle offends the so called holy hypocrites ,let "god" sort them if they export death.Oh I lived in Sweden to,seller of arms, always sits on fence,,another story.masbury you stirrer you ha ha

Every American I know wants to kill or capture bin Laden and killing him would be just fine. There is no "holy hypocrisy," or 'bleeding heart liberalism," about that, at least not from anyone I know.

This ghastly and horrible failure of George Bush to get that criminal -- eight years of failure -- is such a national disgrace it's hard to even mention.

Four years after our Pearl Harbor (in which less people were killed), the USA led the way in defeating powerful armies of real major powers.

Eight years after 9/11 this towel-head (no offense)...but this towel-head with a small band of followers and rag-tag military ability still remains free, still is able to organize, put's out video and a...

Every American I know wants to kill or capture bin Laden and killing him would be just fine. There is no "holy hypocrisy," or 'bleeding heart liberalism," about that, at least not from anyone I know.

This ghastly and horrible failure of George Bush to get that criminal -- eight years of failure -- is such a national disgrace it's hard to even mention.

Four years after our Pearl Harbor (in which less people were killed), the USA led the way in defeating powerful armies of real major powers.

Eight years after 9/11 this towel-head (no offense)...but this towel-head with a small band of followers and rag-tag military ability still remains free, still is able to organize, put's out video and audio messages.

What a disgrace.

Bush is a total failure. He could have united this nation in righteous fury, stirred righteous patriotism down to its roots, if he had only gone after this criminal.

But no....Middle East warmongers, oil companies, and neo-con pro-zionist extremist misdirected the nation for their own special interests: Oil and Israel.

This divided the nation. and is a sickening failure. It disgusts us. It humiliate us.

Not only has Bush and his cohorts used 9/11 as an excuse for this but it has been used to stir up hate against all Muslims, to start a religious war, to promote a was against so-called: Islamofascism, and a so-called Global War on Terror.

Bush also made 9/11 an excuse to damage and shred our Constitution and to start spying on our own citizens on a massive scale, without even any reason necessary.

This man is not worth fighting for. He is hardly worth spitting on.

My father, BTW, fought against the Japanese in WWII.

He wouldn't go for this crap, either.

@citizenbfk,You must understand which ever Government we have Left or Right @ similarly in US there is no point of having an alliance if you don,t stand shoulder to shoulder in times of foreign attack or war.Forgoodness sake Australians are uncomfortable being a nuclear target with US spy bases at Pinegap and Exmouth.If US gets Bushwacked like at Pearl Harbour you would benifit from other contributions we make in forward warning of incoming bogies: politicians come and go! .I agree with you in that Binlan should have been caught first even if he was in Pakistan because I don't like their Intelligence Bureau as I don't think they cared much about our objectives.Bush was embarrass...

@citizenbfk,You must understand which ever Government we have Left or Right @ similarly in US there is no point of having an alliance if you don,t stand shoulder to shoulder in times of foreign attack or war.Forgoodness sake Australians are uncomfortable being a nuclear target with US spy bases at Pinegap and Exmouth.If US gets Bushwacked like at Pearl Harbour you would benifit from other contributions we make in forward warning of incoming bogies: politicians come and go! .I agree with you in that Binlan should have been caught first even if he was in Pakistan because I don't like their Intelligence Bureau as I don't think they cared much about our objectives.Bush was embarrassed lately by our PM Rudd by asking him what G20 was like G8. Ha ha ha but he shouldnt have repeated it as a dinner joke.That is what worries me about New kids on the Block, OK

@chedare > All of your post, above, make total and perfect sense to me.

Even the point that he shouldn't have made such an explicit verbal threat.

I'll confess I worry, though, about alliances, especially secret one or ones that are not official alliances but just false claims of having a binding or properly considered and approved alliance.

Early American leaders (The "Founding Fathers,") were explictly against "entangling alliances."

World War One showed how alliances led to one small event in Serbia triggering dominoes that lead to a worldwide war: something like A attacked B, which cause C, by terms of an alliance, to move against A; which caused D to move against C; which cause E an...

@chedare > All of your post, above, make total and perfect sense to me.

Even the point that he shouldn't have made such an explicit verbal threat.

I'll confess I worry, though, about alliances, especially secret one or ones that are not official alliances but just false claims of having a binding or properly considered and approved alliance.

Early American leaders (The "Founding Fathers,") were explictly against "entangling alliances."

World War One showed how alliances led to one small event in Serbia triggering dominoes that lead to a worldwide war: something like A attacked B, which cause C, by terms of an alliance, to move against A; which caused D to move against C; which cause E and F to move against D. - Boom! -- world war.

Or, today, A (America) is building a missile base in P (Poland), which R (Russian) says it will take military action against, which would trigger N (NATO) and then A's generals would say means we have to go to war.

And we go to war without even a discussion or approval by our Congress? That's a danger.

Even in World War 2 just because Britain was attacked didn't mean the USA immediately went to war against Germany.

What if Israel decides to attack Iran? Iran fights back. Because then, Iran fought back against Israel then the Israeli-USA Alliance means the USA goes to war against Iran.

Without even a discussion or debate by our Congress?

So does this mean Israel can push or force the USA into war based on what they do?

If you Aussies go mad and attack China are we obligated to support you? Australia could force America into a war with China?

Of course, I know, we'd like to think alliances are only for defense, not for offense.

But our leaders don't seem to think so when it comes to Israel, even though there is NO Israel-USA alliance!

(But everyone thinks there is or says there is or pretends there is -- There is no Israel-USA alliance)

(Note: Because U.S. law say alliances can only be with nations that have fixed borders, i

@ citizenbfk hi on history making day.I think any alliance Us has with Isreal would be a unholy one and suspect US or French who are always trouble making since loss of empire, gave the nuclear weapons. Similarly India should not get US Nuclear tech in my humble opinion I also agree with you that despite Alliances transparent debate should be aired in Congress or our case Parliament. All dirty deals and issues put on table before committing to hostilities.Australia is trying to be good friend to China but criticize about Tibet and Nth Korea and tries to calm there concerns about USA and Taiwan, only what their one Party news sources edits out what they don't like our Chinese speaking PM sayi...

@ citizenbfk hi on history making day.I think any alliance Us has with Isreal would be a unholy one and suspect US or French who are always trouble making since loss of empire, gave the nuclear weapons. Similarly India should not get US Nuclear tech in my humble opinion I also agree with you that despite Alliances transparent debate should be aired in Congress or our case Parliament. All dirty deals and issues put on table before committing to hostilities.Australia is trying to be good friend to China but criticize about Tibet and Nth Korea and tries to calm there concerns about USA and Taiwan, only what their one Party news sources edits out what they don't like our Chinese speaking PM saying at broadcasted Beijing University Press address. The Resources deals like for gas are for 50 years and ridiculously low prices like 60-70 cents per litre, at present they make some small concessions but in end poor Dali Lama after discussions got no satisfaction from them.
I think it is always forewarned is for armed so diplomatic interaction is constant and on going to head off or prepared for confrontation.Churchill abandoned us in WW11 plus sent our Army over there in to stupid Greek affair disaster, after they took 60,000 Italians at Benghazi, as he did disaster at Gallipoli in earlier one in WW!.The US always seems to take time and plenty of debate at home in past before committing troops.They arrived here just in time for us. Like you say the landscape has changed and unilateral action with just Bush and CIA in the "LOOP" is in LA LA land.I,m sorry I never got time to try and to get old news-paper story rebuff to Howard by Obama but it,s water under bridge.
What US does in huge issues like global warming and war overseas affects us , Obama said they would be out of Iraq in 16 months then we are too. But we got to keep pressure on you re global warming because what we do makes no difference same with finance 3% is about our world share?Of course much invested in US.Re

@ citizenbfk No worries I ,m sure we looking for whats right and good.It,s been bugging me all day I sent wrong info on long term price deal for gas/LPG to China was 6-7 cents a litre From Nth- West Shelf West.Aust. Grrr when today at country pump it was 90c probably 60-70c/ltr in city not petrol .Thanks for those links just about to enjoy having a look, take it easy "mate" thanks so much for interesting yarn.Lets hope this guy can mend some fences in all we covered. Indonesians have angry anti Aust.. day as their Bali Bombers supposed to get shot or 3 of many that get off.They wear Osama Binladen T-Shirts all around Java the religious primary schools "madrases"??(Sp) teach hate for west we ...

@ citizenbfk No worries I ,m sure we looking for whats right and good.It,s been bugging me all day I sent wrong info on long term price deal for gas/LPG to China was 6-7 cents a litre From Nth- West Shelf West.Aust. Grrr when today at country pump it was 90c probably 60-70c/ltr in city not petrol .Thanks for those links just about to enjoy having a look, take it easy "mate" thanks so much for interesting yarn.Lets hope this guy can mend some fences in all we covered. Indonesians have angry anti Aust.. day as their Bali Bombers supposed to get shot or 3 of many that get off.They wear Osama Binladen T-Shirts all around Java the religious primary schools "madrases"??(Sp) teach hate for west we got 200 million there and then Malaysia who our past PM once called theirs a recalcitrant similar attitude, Muslims ,we feel better with US alliance than with out it.East Timor adventure we undertook with out you but lots (25) of years of cover ups of our Journalist shot by TNI when they invaded, European conventions go out window in warfare in this region.West Papua was dirty deal by Henry Kissinger with Indonesia now there's a Black hearted one that went under the radar if ever there was one he shares in poor peoples wealth from his share of Freeport worlds biggest gold @ copper mine If you google "Operation Annihilation " story may come up.US napalming highlanders for Indonesian invaders another sad story covered up.US over seas policy at time was cold war directed winning TNI arms deals vs China/Russia in other SE Asian countries. We may not always agree about our countries involvements, at least Howard refused to see Kissinger when he was here but our new guy Rudd toadied around him in last states visit sickening.OK.

Obama's victory is a amazing event. I don't think anybody knew how it would feel till it finally happen.

Spontaneous World Cup type celebrations broke out from coast to coast, joy and tears 4,000 kilometers long.

Your info about Asia, Malaysia, Indonesia, East Timor, the Bali Bombers and this nuke deal with India all interesting.

Although everybody's aware that Australia is "Down Under," the fact that you are so embedded in a Asian world often still comes as a surprise; although it should be no surprise at all.

India, for example, is so far away that we don't think or know much of their politics at all.

The nuke deal with India, though, was a headline for a few days (but not mentioned ...

Obama's victory is a amazing event. I don't think anybody knew how it would feel till it finally happen.

Spontaneous World Cup type celebrations broke out from coast to coast, joy and tears 4,000 kilometers long.

Your info about Asia, Malaysia, Indonesia, East Timor, the Bali Bombers and this nuke deal with India all interesting.

Although everybody's aware that Australia is "Down Under," the fact that you are so embedded in a Asian world often still comes as a surprise; although it should be no surprise at all.

India, for example, is so far away that we don't think or know much of their politics at all.

The nuke deal with India, though, was a headline for a few days (but not mentioned again.)

You might not believe the difference it how this dangerous nuclear trade deal was reported: It was reported that all the other nations in this 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group were in favor of this but that the U.S. was a hold-out.

But it seems, really, that the USA were the ones (Bush) wanting to push the deal through and see it happen.

Humm? Not sure. I guess it means there will be more nukes in the world, for sure. Dangerous. And how can a policy look fair or be real when we go along with nukes for Israel, nukes for India, but then
say no nukes for Iran?

Well, we're in a deep hole, for sure. I honestly feel we're very lucky to soon have Obama for President because he seems to be a very decent, hard-working and intelligent man -- and values hearing the ideas of many smart people before making his decision -- then he knows how to "gives orders", puts people to work and expects things to be accomplished.

He also strongly believes in our long tarnished American ideals, our history, our stories, our hopes -- and the important laws of our highest law, the Constitution, which Bush has ripped and torn.

The latest poll now confirms: Bush is the most hated president in America's history. (Only 20% approve of him). He's been a nightmare and a disgrace.

___

Don't kno

@ citizenbfk, cheers just about to upload U2 song thanks just give the Saints, one a listen as I,m a believer in heaven on earth.I also think it obscene that proliferation of nukes continues when such disparages of wealth exists in those countries like India and Pakistan when the resources would be better spent on health and education.The founding fathers did a great great job for their time, and I wish we had a "Bill of Rights".I think systems should be flexible enough to evolve over time like in nature taking best from others that work for greater benefit of citizens while not exploiting those other countries that need some compassionate help as Australia did in SE Asia after the Tsunami.I...

@ citizenbfk, cheers just about to upload U2 song thanks just give the Saints, one a listen as I,m a believer in heaven on earth.I also think it obscene that proliferation of nukes continues when such disparages of wealth exists in those countries like India and Pakistan when the resources would be better spent on health and education.The founding fathers did a great great job for their time, and I wish we had a "Bill of Rights".I think systems should be flexible enough to evolve over time like in nature taking best from others that work for greater benefit of citizens while not exploiting those other countries that need some compassionate help as Australia did in SE Asia after the Tsunami.It does more good charitable acts than religious divisions and hatred that the Mullahs there seem to be fostering.Indonesia used disaster to further crush separatist in Ache and they continue their genocidal occupation of West Papua.Obama's lessons till he was 10 need re-educating on some issues in this area that the Generals of TNI keep under wraps.Bloody Bush has got marching orders so good riddance to a bumbling fool and the big voting turn out vindicates my belief in better representative democracy by more compulsory vote than by special interest groups high jacking the system. Good luck I might put up unpopular info on what is good and right to make a noise re West Papua as Obama has been encouraging the indigenous nations(Red Indians) that they will get new deals and others like them around the world are encouraged by his recognition of their special needs too.Australian aboriginal spokesmen have been heartened by Obama election in speeches here.OK take it easy pardner.Happy trails till later.

@chedare - darn, lots of good ideas and info in your last post. The link between India getting nukes while all that money would be better spent on improving the quality of life of their people was a very good one.

Not to mention that the more nukes we have and the more countries that have nukes all the more probable that such weapons will be used -- weapons with really un-imaginable destructive potential.

Re: Australian aboriginal spokesmen have been heartened by Obama election in speeches here -- it has been an incredible think to see happen, worldwide.

We all knew, here, that it was important but up until the very end no one could believe or count on it happening so all our own feelings...

@chedare - darn, lots of good ideas and info in your last post. The link between India getting nukes while all that money would be better spent on improving the quality of life of their people was a very good one.

Not to mention that the more nukes we have and the more countries that have nukes all the more probable that such weapons will be used -- weapons with really un-imaginable destructive potential.

Re: Australian aboriginal spokesmen have been heartened by Obama election in speeches here -- it has been an incredible think to see happen, worldwide.

We all knew, here, that it was important but up until the very end no one could believe or count on it happening so all our own feelings were held in check, held back - till the declaration of victory for Obama was announced and all these feelings shot up even stronger than expected.

It's like nothing any of us have seen or expected in their lives.

We are touched, too, by how it has inspired the hearts and spirits of so many around the world.

Too say the least, that's a good thing; but even more we have what we voted for: a man who looks like he's willing to work hard, is smart, has the skills of a leader, has a good heart, is thoughtful and realistic, wants to bring people together rather than divide them (different from the Republicans who wanted to divide the nation with insults, hate and fear).

What he says he wants to do also sounds good. Something I also see (and I suppose others too) is that he loves this country, he loves the good points of our history, our stories, our hopes. He honors the ideals of our nation and honors and respects the highest laws we are suppose to abide: our Constitution. (which Bush has shredded and abused).

We both come from British roots. I don't know how Australia explains where it came from or who they are but over here all we got is two pieces of paper: our Declaration of Independence from Britain and our Constitution; that's it; that's where we came from and that's who we

(cont.)... all we got is two pieces of paper: our Declaration of Independence from Britain and our Constitution; that's it; that's where we came from and that's who we're suppose to be.

You are right that somethings need to be adjusted to the times -- and this can be done too, that has been done; although not done with the snap of a finger. (3/4 of the states can change the Constitution).

But while we can change and add to our Constitution I don't think we have ever taken anything away from it, never deleted any of it.

The First Amendment to the Constitution (the first of ten amendments known as the 'Bill of Rights') -- freedom of speech and freedom of religion -- could never be delete...

(cont.)... all we got is two pieces of paper: our Declaration of Independence from Britain and our Constitution; that's it; that's where we came from and that's who we're suppose to be.

You are right that somethings need to be adjusted to the times -- and this can be done too, that has been done; although not done with the snap of a finger. (3/4 of the states can change the Constitution).

But while we can change and add to our Constitution I don't think we have ever taken anything away from it, never deleted any of it.

The First Amendment to the Constitution (the first of ten amendments known as the 'Bill of Rights') -- freedom of speech and freedom of religion -- could never be deleted or if it was, then we would not bear any resemblance to where we started and how we think of ourselves.

Funny, thinking of it simply pragmatically, how could a nation of so many diverse people, diverse cultures, diverse races, diverse paths to being here -- how could we possibly live together if we didn't respect and honor the rights of all of us to live the way we want.

Bill of Rights interesting, too, how it prevents a 'tyranny of the majority.' -- A democracy ain't so great if it comes down to 2/3rd of the people voting to beating up the other 1/3rd.

It has been very..very 'strange' and unexpected to me how so many times in my two international forums I find myself bring up the basic ideas of my civilization: freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

It's not like we go around talking about this stuff on the way to some fast-food fish & chips or going to the movies.

But this long (oh so long) elections and the serious issues of our time have dragged many of us back to consider our roots and what we believe -- and how we see our basic beliefs as "the answer," of how we must live ourselves and how it is the only "answer" we can come up with when confronted with some of the intractable conflicts around the world.

Alas, though...greed and corruption exist and are not wash

@citizenbfk,,Amen hear hear,good on you old mate, go down in blaze of glory "OLD GLORY" long may she fly.Love has no colour and the white conservatives vote proved they can rise above that shit at last.I directed spirithiker another like minded patriot outsider I comment with to your great song links U2 ,sachmo I hope he finds as I,m a "bushie from the bush ha ha kind of gives it a bad name goddamn yankees messing with our language,,ha ha ,"I,m self taught in isolated place so cant cut @ paste yet for patriot spirithiker. That last clip I thank you for our Irish heritage,, in biology the hybrid mixture makes for genetically stronger individual I think countries like ours are too better for t...

@citizenbfk,,Amen hear hear,good on you old mate, go down in blaze of glory "OLD GLORY" long may she fly.Love has no colour and the white conservatives vote proved they can rise above that shit at last.I directed spirithiker another like minded patriot outsider I comment with to your great song links U2 ,sachmo I hope he finds as I,m a "bushie from the bush ha ha kind of gives it a bad name goddamn yankees messing with our language,,ha ha ,"I,m self taught in isolated place so cant cut @ paste yet for patriot spirithiker. That last clip I thank you for our Irish heritage,, in biology the hybrid mixture makes for genetically stronger individual I think countries like ours are too better for the diversity ,I can enjoy a Vietnamese dish on or off the plate and many other fine foods from countless cultures that enjoy our way of life.Better than ,"didie dide mow" (get out Zippo raids) burning their homes. Our bush-rangers too shaped our characters anti-authoritarian, swapping more hot shots than, Hollywood Westerns ,Frank Gardener finished his days running a Bar in San Francisco, and many California "diggers" came here for gold rushes. I told spirithiker that if Bush,s popularity keeps going south he might get lynched in Katrina country. best wishes long may multi countries like ours lead the world in a new era of tolerance and understanding and acceptance of our differences but death and destruction only as a last resort I,m not a pacifist who always turn other cheek, the world is still a more dangerous place with all the military build ups going on to our north. We got to have the Intel but not be a police state that's why I posted reference to 4th @ 5th @6th amendment to your Bill OF Rights, such a sacred one, in my opinion being ungodly allows me to confer sacredness on objects I consider of great importance ,,forgive my irreverence to those I may offend, each to his own moral compass I mean.OK happy trails.

@chedare - Well, mate, we have to stop meeting like this.

(joke)

But, gads....43 comments; what a long scroll!

_______________________

I hate to break it to you, if you don't already know, but you have a lot of straight talk, insight and wisdom. (and believe me, I don't normally talk like this).

One idea in your last post, above, struck me, for example, you said:: "in biology the hybrid mixture makes for genetically stronger individual."

I think that too and I've always seen it as one of the real strengths of the USA -- folks all came here from all over the world -- we are a multi-cultural nation -- and when we are united and focused and believe in one goal there is great power in that...

@chedare - Well, mate, we have to stop meeting like this.

(joke)

But, gads....43 comments; what a long scroll!

_______________________

I hate to break it to you, if you don't already know, but you have a lot of straight talk, insight and wisdom. (and believe me, I don't normally talk like this).

One idea in your last post, above, struck me, for example, you said:: "in biology the hybrid mixture makes for genetically stronger individual."

I think that too and I've always seen it as one of the real strengths of the USA -- folks all came here from all over the world -- we are a multi-cultural nation -- and when we are united and focused and believe in one goal there is great power in that; if we are divided then we work against ourselves and get nowhere.

This is quite a contrast to previous times or other cultures who believe in a SuperRace or a ChosenPeople.

There is no SuperRace or ChosenPeople - the strength from all people -- the hybrid mixture -- is stronger.

Just a thought.
____

Knowing how to copy and paste is certainly useful.

Knowing how to type is useful, but these skills only help ideas to come out quicker and easier. It's the ideas that count.

Shakespeare didn't even have a real pen; Einstein didn't have a computer; James Joyce couldnt' spell.


Um...Obama actually referred to himself as a 'mutt,' yesterday. Dang.

Um...here's a one page explaination of how to copy and paste (if helpful?), at: http://www.webmasternow.com/copyandpaste.html

Um...I don't know how I wound up at that Wild Colonial Boy video but I was amazed (and thought it was cool) that it was Mick Jagger from the Rolling Stones singing it.

I don't know what movie that video came from but I'm gonna have to find out.

(It was a pretty popular song when I lived in Ireland)

@citizenbfk,,Hey hi ha ha ha we gotta stop meeting like this masbury will think crazy Irish colonist, but that clip is from controversial choice of actor for film "Ned Kelly" self styled bush-ranger and revolutionary against English low life Police in Victoria.We had several minor revolts brutally crushed by English first time shooting in head Leadership under a white flag near Sydney and rest cut down by army and left were they lay for a lesson. the next was Eureka Stockade in Victoria against Government exploitation of gold miners also they sent out the army and blow miners and Stockade to bits.The Eureka flag a bit like Confederate flag is flow by dissidents here often in Union rallies.ri...

@citizenbfk,,Hey hi ha ha ha we gotta stop meeting like this masbury will think crazy Irish colonist, but that clip is from controversial choice of actor for film "Ned Kelly" self styled bush-ranger and revolutionary against English low life Police in Victoria.We had several minor revolts brutally crushed by English first time shooting in head Leadership under a white flag near Sydney and rest cut down by army and left were they lay for a lesson. the next was Eureka Stockade in Victoria against Government exploitation of gold miners also they sent out the army and blow miners and Stockade to bits.The Eureka flag a bit like Confederate flag is flow by dissidents here often in Union rallies.righthands comments has linked me to some great Irish songs and an US Irish unit in WW1 I think I will learn more from your link to learn more on PC like that cut paste bizzo. then when next we meet I can do like you and give you the links to find the tracks.Yeah that was Mick (Lubra lips) Aust joke in poor taste ,( Lubra aboriginal woman)I organised road crews for Stones and other Bands of that era in Adelaide, South Aust, Chuck Berry ect He owes me a book; but the rich are different. You got the best of both worlds rebellious Irish passion and land of hope and glory. "mut'?Obama needs a minder to keep on top of things self deprivation wont be seen as asset, must project black pride, That's why Powell,s experience could be handy since he knows opposition well befriending former enemy politically could make him very loyal with no where else to go. Your friends can be a hindrance like that mad hatter preacher he distanced himself from early on,, good move,,, sounded like a black Hitler to me ha ha(Master Race pigs arse) Oops better tone my opinions down, but been good spinning a yarn with you mate.Thanks for help re link,@ life long learning encouragement and as J.Lennon sang ,"a working class hero is something to be"cheers like ya tomahawk too, go get em boy."24" had good fiction