The thing about faith is that - faith is what you believe in. If you believe in something and don't live by it, does it matter if you have the "right " religion or not?

If a person "believes" they will go to hell anyway, did God do it or was it "their belief" or "faith" that they would go to hell that condemns them?

Does it benefit God that we believe in him or is it for our sake? Why would an all powerful being need to prove himself for? In terms of eternity, our life span on this earth is but, a blip in time.

If believing in a God whether your understanding is accurate or not, has led you to a more peaceful life and sense of appreciation during your lifetime, and has c...

The thing about faith is that - faith is what you believe in. If you believe in something and don't live by it, does it matter if you have the "right " religion or not?

If a person "believes" they will go to hell anyway, did God do it or was it "their belief" or "faith" that they would go to hell that condemns them?

Does it benefit God that we believe in him or is it for our sake? Why would an all powerful being need to prove himself for? In terms of eternity, our life span on this earth is but, a blip in time.

If believing in a God whether your understanding is accurate or not, has led you to a more peaceful life and sense of appreciation during your lifetime, and has caused you to relieve the pain in other's lives and gives you comfort haven't you already gained by having faith?

Rewards are for being duteous and true. For god has already forgiven us, We only condemn ourselves in our actions and hearts.

If the the many controversial questions about your religion continuously plague your mind, perhaps it a quiet way of showing us that the so called teachers in Temples and churches sometimes teach laws and rules made up by the teachers and not the text. the truth is not always what we expected to find when we brave to read the text without our preconceived notions. The truth is in the texts. But you must seek it to find it. Another man can only tell you his understandings of it within his own limitations. 6-13 years of reading.

Just be careful in choosing the words of your prayers. and know that all prayers are not answered when we think it is most convenient for us.

Ask not of things and circumstances

Jam 4:2-3 ESV You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. (3) You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

As far as God being fair, let's clear something up. Fairness means that you give the same thing to all people. If you have 20 people, and a packet of bubble gum with 20 sticks in it, it's fair to give 1 to each person, if one person gets one.

God, however, is just. This means that he judges all men by the same standard. This standard is, surprisingly, himself. And nobody can live up to God, since...

Ask not of things and circumstances

Jam 4:2-3 ESV You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask. (3) You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

As far as God being fair, let's clear something up. Fairness means that you give the same thing to all people. If you have 20 people, and a packet of bubble gum with 20 sticks in it, it's fair to give 1 to each person, if one person gets one.

God, however, is just. This means that he judges all men by the same standard. This standard is, surprisingly, himself. And nobody can live up to God, since everyone sins. "Only God is truely Good", Jesus said when someone called him good. This wasn't a reprimand, to state that he wasn't good, of course: it was a claim to divinity, a call to shift their perspective and see their words for what they were, rather than the massage they would impute to them.

So, because God is just, we're all judged as sinners, just like Satan (the original sinner). And we're all doomed to the lake of fire because of it.

But there is some good news, even in this. Even though we've got this death sentance, God has made a way out for us. He sent someone to pay our penalty - to satisfy the wrath of God that is poured out on *our* sin.

That person is, of course, Jesus - the Messiah. He took your sins and mine upon himself. If you recognise that, give him your heartfelt thanks, and turn away from your sins and to God (this is what repentance is), then you will be saved from the doom that awaits all mankind. You will be welcomed as a son of God, adopted into the very family of God, and you will share in the inheritance of Jesus.

If God were fair, because he saved one person He'd have to save them all. But he's not fair - he's just. And it is by his free will that he saves men, not because he has to. He doesn't owe it to you.

He did it anyway.

adamskinner made a good point, about God's justice. However, this response doesn't answer jklugman's primary question: "maybe there is another reason why God could expect someone to believe in him - could you maybe make a decent argument as to why someone should believe in God along these lines?"

In Romans 1:18-22, the Bible says that, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, b...

adamskinner made a good point, about God's justice. However, this response doesn't answer jklugman's primary question: "maybe there is another reason why God could expect someone to believe in him - could you maybe make a decent argument as to why someone should believe in God along these lines?"

In Romans 1:18-22, the Bible says that, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Professing to be wise, they became fools..."

So, according to this scripture, the way God can "expect" people to believe in Him is He has made it "evident within [us]" and within creation that He exists, but instead of acknowledging Him, we have "suppressed" the truth. Or more simply, that we are "without excuse."

Jesus put it another way. In Matthew 12:38-40 it reads:

"Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to [Jesus], 'Teacher, we want to see a sign from You.' But He answered and said to them, 'An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS AND THREE NIGHTS IN THE BELLY OF THE SEA MONSTER, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.'"

So, to answer your question as to why someone should believe in God, He has made it evident within us, and furthermore, while we all may want to see a sign, the sign was already given through Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. If you want a detailed investigation of these matters, I suggest you read Josh McDowel's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict." Best of luck on your search. "Seek and you will find."

The biblical answer to this question is not an easy one to handle.

Paul addresses it in Romans 9.

Rom 9:10-24 ESV said:


And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, (11) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- (12) she was told, "The older will serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on wh...

The biblical answer to this question is not an easy one to handle.

Paul addresses it in Romans 9.

Rom 9:10-24 ESV said:


And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, (11) though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- (12) she was told, "The older will serve the younger." (13) As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." (14) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

It's literally impossible to believe (authentically) in God without the hand of God drawing you to him. The evidence is there, but you have been blinded by the "prince of this world" to the Gospel.

2Co 4:1-4 ESV said:

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. (2) But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. (3) And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. (4) In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

This "veil" metaphor alludes to an earlier phrasing in the letter:

2Co 3:14-16...[-substr- said:

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2Co 4:1-4 ESV said:

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. (2) But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. (3) And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. (4) In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

This "veil" metaphor alludes to an earlier phrasing in the letter:

2Co 3:14-16 ESV said:

But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. (15) Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. (16) But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed.

So, how does this relate to the original question? It is the scriptural answer to the query: "Can someone 'believe in God' by looking at the preponderance of evidence?".

The answer to that question entirely depends on what it means to "believe in God". James 2 elucidates:

Jam 2:18-19 ESV said:

But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (19) You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder!

Intellectual assent will not cut it. Faith. A rock climber trusts his rope. A guy jumping out of a plane trusts his parachute is packed correctly. A Christian trusts in Jesus. More than that, they give their lives entirely to him. "Take me, and make me yours. Mold me into the person you want me to be. As you gave your life for me, now i give my life to you."

Besides, if you accept the reasoning in Romans, then isn't the answer to jklugman's question that God is in fact unjust in punishing nonbelievers?

Not according to Paul. Has not the potter the right over the clay? Sure, it's unfair. It's not democratic, and it's not a meritocracy. We're all hopelessly stained from the time we commit your first sin.

Consider unbelief from God's perspective. Let's look at the context of the "posterboy" Christian verse (John 3:16):

Joh 3:16-21 ESV said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn t...

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Besides, if you accept the reasoning in Romans, then isn't the answer to jklugman's question that God is in fact unjust in punishing nonbelievers?

Not according to Paul. Has not the potter the right over the clay? Sure, it's unfair. It's not democratic, and it's not a meritocracy. We're all hopelessly stained from the time we commit your first sin.

Consider unbelief from God's perspective. Let's look at the context of the "posterboy" Christian verse (John 3:16):

Joh 3:16-21 ESV said:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. (18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (19) And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. (20) For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. (21) But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

But why this condemnation for not believing? Consider what God did. If you did something this extreme this someone you loved, and then they crapped on you, what would your reaction be? Just because you love them doesn't mean that they will escape your justice, when the time comes.

Jo 5:10-11 ESV said:

Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. (11) And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

And you make him out a liar.

Faith. A rock climber trusts his rope. A guy jumping out of a plane trusts his parachute is packed correctly. A Christian trusts in Jesus.

But are rock climbers and sky divers really exercising the same kind of faith that a Christian does? After all, they know from prior experience that they can depend on ropes and parachutes. I would say that they don't so much have faith but a confidence that is grounded in their observations of the real world. There is no such analogue for believing in a particular deity.

I also have to say that I am confused as to what is the point you want to make with all of these bible verses. The Romans one seems to be endorsing predestination...

Faith. A rock climber trusts his rope. A guy jumping out of a plane trusts his parachute is packed correctly. A Christian trusts in Jesus.

But are rock climbers and sky divers really exercising the same kind of faith that a Christian does? After all, they know from prior experience that they can depend on ropes and parachutes. I would say that they don't so much have faith but a confidence that is grounded in their observations of the real world. There is no such analogue for believing in a particular deity.

I also have to say that I am confused as to what is the point you want to make with all of these bible verses. The Romans one seems to be endorsing predestination, while the verse from the book of John suggests it is our choice to love or hate the light.

Consider what God did. If you did something this extreme this someone you loved, and then they crapped on you, what would your reaction be? Just because you love them doesn't mean that they will escape your justice, when the time comes."

Honestly, if they did not have good evidence that I existed, or that I loved them, I could not blame them for "crap[ping]" on me.

@enbar:
You should check out Lee Strobel's account in "The Case for Christ". He was a die-hard unbeliever, and his wife converted to Christianity and he went about doing some serious research to prove her wrong (iirc). In the end, he came out with the conclusion that she was right, based on the evidence.

Personally, I think the best "evidence" is the verity of prophecy, specifically Isaiah 53:

Isa 53:2-12 ESV said:

For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. (3) He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one fr...

@enbar:
You should check out Lee Strobel's account in "The Case for Christ". He was a die-hard unbeliever, and his wife converted to Christianity and he went about doing some serious research to prove her wrong (iirc). In the end, he came out with the conclusion that she was right, based on the evidence.

Personally, I think the best "evidence" is the verity of prophecy, specifically Isaiah 53:

Isa 53:2-12 ESV said:

For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. (3) He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (4) Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. (8) By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

Continued...

One doesn't need to walk into reading these texts as divinely authored - that's the point.

When you look at them objectively, and say: "Wow, this was foretold", and then you see it come to pass...

Unless, of course, you maintain that Jesus never existed, and that the gospels are total fantasy. I wonder if you're willing to accept the onus there, look into the veracity of the historical record (and compare it with the level of evidence of other things you blindly accept as true because of the amount of historical evidence they have supporting them, as Strobel did), and make an informed decision.

Because if the events did happen as they are told in the gospel accounts, and these Jewish pro...

One doesn't need to walk into reading these texts as divinely authored - that's the point.

When you look at them objectively, and say: "Wow, this was foretold", and then you see it come to pass...

Unless, of course, you maintain that Jesus never existed, and that the gospels are total fantasy. I wonder if you're willing to accept the onus there, look into the veracity of the historical record (and compare it with the level of evidence of other things you blindly accept as true because of the amount of historical evidence they have supporting them, as Strobel did), and make an informed decision.

Because if the events did happen as they are told in the gospel accounts, and these Jewish prophecies exist and are confirmed to have come hundreds of years prior, then we have a quandary. Can you just explain it away? Perhaps you can - people can convince themselves of almost anything. As the Rock Man said in The Point: "You see what you want to see - dig?"

Those last two statements, of course, could be use in riposte.

You seem to have done some homework, and are genuinely interested in the truth. It's more than I can say before I became a believer. I had discounted Christianity out of hand due to the rank hypocrisy I saw growing up as a child. It was boring and foolish and false, and I mocked them with the best of them. I got into Zen Buddhism, and eventually witchcraft. It was during this time in my life that i was called to be a Christian - but not because I was able to logically deduce from the historical record and the bible that God is real and Jesus is God. Instead, God revealed himself to me and laid an undeniable claim on my life. He revealed himself to me personally, and it is through the evidence of my own senses that I came to the conclusion that he is the All Mighty God. It didn't happen immediately, of course. I'm a skeptic at heart =p

But it did happen. And here I am.

That makes it sound as if you either accept everything in the Gospels at face value, or you reject the notion that Jesus ever existed. Those alternatives are specious. Rather, one might, say, believe that a person Jesus existed, that he was a well-known healer and teacher, and that he was executed by the Romans... and that the more supernatural stuff was added later. The key phrases in Isaiah that you highlighted refer not to the historical events of the Passion but, in the Christian reading, to its theological interpretation -- the historical facts of the Gospel don't include the theory of the Atonement that the Isaiah passages are adduced to support. Strobel, by the way, makes some fairly ...

That makes it sound as if you either accept everything in the Gospels at face value, or you reject the notion that Jesus ever existed. Those alternatives are specious. Rather, one might, say, believe that a person Jesus existed, that he was a well-known healer and teacher, and that he was executed by the Romans... and that the more supernatural stuff was added later. The key phrases in Isaiah that you highlighted refer not to the historical events of the Passion but, in the Christian reading, to its theological interpretation -- the historical facts of the Gospel don't include the theory of the Atonement that the Isaiah passages are adduced to support. Strobel, by the way, makes some fairly extraordinary and tendentious assertions about the chronology of the biblical canon. No reputable biblical scholars that I know of agree with his assertion of the early authorship of the Gospels (I think Mark is the one he focuses on, but he makes some very far-fetched claims about Luke too).

Anyhow, I gotta get off this kick, I have work to do. I appreciate your honesty and your willingness to engage in dialogue. As for having done my homework and caring about the truth, I greatly appreciate the comment -- I suppose you could say it's true, in a way, as I hold a PhD in church history. Of course, a lot of idiots have PhD's, so I don't think that counts for much.

Hi there, as a Muslim I can answer this question in another way.

It is very obvious that a Creator must exist. Why? It depends on how you define the Creator for a start. If you define Him to be the thing that created everything and so is the source of everything, then our existence is proof that He exists.

Why?

Because everything must come from something. Things cant come from nothing.

The fact today that some people dont believe there is or can be a Creator is now the problem. ie Whether the Creator exists or not is not the problem. It is obvious He must exist. So the issue is why are so many people in this age unable to see that it is obvious. What has happened to thier minds to make...

Hi there, as a Muslim I can answer this question in another way.

It is very obvious that a Creator must exist. Why? It depends on how you define the Creator for a start. If you define Him to be the thing that created everything and so is the source of everything, then our existence is proof that He exists.

Why?

Because everything must come from something. Things cant come from nothing.

The fact today that some people dont believe there is or can be a Creator is now the problem. ie Whether the Creator exists or not is not the problem. It is obvious He must exist. So the issue is why are so many people in this age unable to see that it is obvious. What has happened to thier minds to make it no longer see that it is obvious. This is the key point.

If anyone has any comments I can elaborate further.

Take care all.

Many thanks for your welcome j, and thankyou for your comments. I think i can answer both very fully.

1)Re: Invites infinite regress. This is only a problem if one cant deal with infinite regress. It is easy to deal with this. We allways assume that everything must COME from something else. Is this assumption allways valid? Why do we think it is allways true? Is there a proof? I dont think so. So does that mean that there can be a thing that exists today but has not COME ? What does that mean? It means its allways been in existence. And never actually been created. So NO need to worry about infinite regress here. Its not a problem. The Creator must be such a type of Being. ie allways been...

Many thanks for your welcome j, and thankyou for your comments. I think i can answer both very fully.

1)Re: Invites infinite regress. This is only a problem if one cant deal with infinite regress. It is easy to deal with this. We allways assume that everything must COME from something else. Is this assumption allways valid? Why do we think it is allways true? Is there a proof? I dont think so. So does that mean that there can be a thing that exists today but has not COME ? What does that mean? It means its allways been in existence. And never actually been created. So NO need to worry about infinite regress here. Its not a problem. The Creator must be such a type of Being. ie allways been there, otherwise , he would be a creature and not a Creator. Creator means something that did not COME.

2.
Having come to believe that there must be a Creator, the next issue is to understand about His nature. And the third thing is to ask if there is any communication sent to us from Him. If there is then your second comment may be answered. In Islam and Christianity and Jewdaism, all say that there is communication and that it talks about the Creator caring for His creatures, and creating them for a specific purpose and reason. And that this reason is actaully the same in all the 3 monothiestic relgions. (christianity, Judiasm , Islam). Other similarities are judgement day, and the afterlife.

Ali_Muslim and willhelm raise similar objections to my "infinite regress" argument. I will only say that your argument about a "Prime Mover" or a "Creator who has always existed" just begs the question of whether indeed there was some kind of sentient entity that "created" the universe. Do we really need a sentient being to explain the universe? Maybe, maybe not. I am not sure.

I am not really dead set against a generic idea of a creator, but religionists are going to have a harder time to convince me that this idea of a creator should translate into belief in a particular religion. Ali_muslim points to the scripture of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that describe communication betwe...

Ali_Muslim and willhelm raise similar objections to my "infinite regress" argument. I will only say that your argument about a "Prime Mover" or a "Creator who has always existed" just begs the question of whether indeed there was some kind of sentient entity that "created" the universe. Do we really need a sentient being to explain the universe? Maybe, maybe not. I am not sure.

I am not really dead set against a generic idea of a creator, but religionists are going to have a harder time to convince me that this idea of a creator should translate into belief in a particular religion. Ali_muslim points to the scripture of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam that describe communication between god and humans, but that just begs the question of why I should take these scriptures at face value.

It really does not make sense to me why a creator of such a vast and marvelous thing like the universe would demand that humans worship him. That idea is totally alien to me. Hence this clip.

jk, in this age , the publich opinion has become anti-God. You can judge by the articles about Relgion that are written .

Consequently 'religioius' words have taken on a twisted meaning. These being designed to instill hatred or hostility to God. This is how it is in this age unfortuantely, but mainly in the Western world. And due to the problems that occured in Europe due to the misapplication of Christianity , or rather its exploitation by the church. So in Europe the intellectuals reacted and instead of attacking the missapplication or the exploitation of relgion they ended up attacking religion itself ie God too.

So now Worship of God, no longer means gettng close to God and trying to ...

jk, in this age , the publich opinion has become anti-God. You can judge by the articles about Relgion that are written .

Consequently 'religioius' words have taken on a twisted meaning. These being designed to instill hatred or hostility to God. This is how it is in this age unfortuantely, but mainly in the Western world. And due to the problems that occured in Europe due to the misapplication of Christianity , or rather its exploitation by the church. So in Europe the intellectuals reacted and instead of attacking the missapplication or the exploitation of relgion they ended up attacking religion itself ie God too.

So now Worship of God, no longer means gettng close to God and trying to understand His nature and His attributes, and enqurying about His creation and His design and His goodness. As well as seeking to be entered into Heaven.

Now worship of God means being forced by God and those religious fanatics to do something you dont want to do.

Hence in this age many have become blind to the truth. Especially in Europe. Due to the incorrect reaction of the so called intellectuals and philosophers in the time of the so called 'enlightenment', which should have better been called 'Further Endarkenment'.

So yes in the time Europe under christianity, it was a time of darkness due to clashes with free thought and science , as well as exploitation of religion, but after that period things didnt become enlightened. It became 'Further Endarkenment', in my mind at least. Because people in this age still dont know why they are here, where they going after death, and what the whole story is. They are definilty not in enlightenment, especailly as regards the most important questions in their life. They live instead brain washing themselves that these questions are not important or that they can never be answered or such like brainwashing tactics. What do you think?

The message is not as much about punishment as it is about saving you from the torment that the humans have elected to create after the world was given to people with free choice of actions. The truth is that the many punishments fair and unfair in our life times are due to other humans.
The bigger message is that with faith and understanding you welcome the power that removes suffering and unfair pain from your lives. Are you punished for not believing that you can be saved from pain and suffering that already exist in your lives during your life time? If so is it God that punishes you or your bold rejection to god's aid that allows you to continue to accept the pain offered by other ...

The message is not as much about punishment as it is about saving you from the torment that the humans have elected to create after the world was given to people with free choice of actions. The truth is that the many punishments fair and unfair in our life times are due to other humans.
The bigger message is that with faith and understanding you welcome the power that removes suffering and unfair pain from your lives. Are you punished for not believing that you can be saved from pain and suffering that already exist in your lives during your life time? If so is it God that punishes you or your bold rejection to god's aid that allows you to continue to accept the pain offered by other humans?
If the fire exists and I tell you it's hot and will burn you...and you insist to stick your hand in the fire to find out if it's true even after being warned...did I burn you or did you burn yourself? Now if the person was a child and didn't understand and you slapped the child's hand away lightly, they don't understand the slap but, they understand enough to heed the warning and will avoid it. Now the child may think the warning was unfair, where the parent saved them from a much worse outcome. Some kids all you have to say is no and they will never even try to touch the flame, because they had faith in the one assigned to protect them in their youth.
Likewise the person who has never had faith will be less likely to heed warnings and do the things which cause suffering to them self and others.
Whether you believe explicitly is not as important as the character of your heart. For we have learned what we have been taught. There are those who were taught not to believe at a young age. If those persons are moved and choose a life in accordance with the law that has been set forth to establish harmony even if they do not know about those laws,they have the blessings. He with the law will be judged by the law, those without the law will be judged without the law.