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masburyfollowshare
5-7-2008 2:37 PM
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masbury says:
Some of the best comments I've seen on CM, toward the end, below! Knocked me out!
45 Comments   | Add a Comment
5-7-2008 3:43 PM
Kauaiguy
I believe Nietzsche called it "a will to ignorance."
5-7-2008 3:45 PM
n2sooners
Make lemonade
5-7-2008 3:47 PM
jatfla
I think we're more realistic.
5-7-2008 4:18 PM
kmcolo
or more in denial (?)
5-7-2008 4:29 PM
n2sooners
I'd say thinking everyone should be equal and if they aren't then the government should make it so is a denial of reality.
5-7-2008 4:38 PM
kmcolo
And I'd say that your statement is a bit of a straw man.
5-7-2008 4:50 PM
n2sooners
Just following your lead.
5-7-2008 4:57 PM
kmcolo
My statement was the logical counter point to jatfla's. Yours on the other hand...

Now if I had said something like - conservatives are happier because they like taking as much for themselves as possible and actually promote inequality as a means to justify and maintain a status-quo that see to their enrichment at the expense of others - then you might have had a logical follow through.
5-7-2008 5:07 PM
n2sooners
I just tied in your statement with the story about how liberals worry about inequalities.
5-7-2008 6:51 PM
sillysam
I suspect the reason that conservatives are more happy is because they know that their happiness is dependent on them on not on the government.

More important, Conservatives give more of their time, blood, and treasure. Giving always makes me happier.

I suspect that Conservatives spend less time stewing about how horrible the world is and more time doing something about it.
5-7-2008 7:06 PM
kmcolo
Straw man central.
5-7-2008 7:11 PM
kmcolo
I guess I could build a straw man about how conservatives always view things in simple either-or terms and have a generally fatalistic approach that one is either one or the other and that 1) they are on the side of right/good and 2) there is not a whole lot they can do for those on the side of wrong/bad and thus with such a simple view and being in camp 1, they are happy.
5-7-2008 11:02 PM
n2sooners
Your posts make me happy.
5-7-2008 11:21 PM
jatfla
Too funny n2.

Two things that I think conservatives have:
A sense that things are *usually* black or white...right or wrong.
A recognition that human beings are not predominately *good*, but that there's evil/greed/self-interest in the hearts of all.

*Usually* that makes decisions and choices easy to make and it eliminates the delusion of anticipating that those in authority will act selflessly and for the common good 'of their own accord'.
5-8-2008 12:26 AM
kenstipe
Happy is healthy. Do we not make better choices when we are happy? Do we not think more clearly? Being somewhat of a centrist, I usually find when I obsess on something, pick it apart, or insert emotion and feelings, I usually end up in some mild form of irrational despair. I think it is true that Conservatives think in a more simplistic way, not that they have inferior intellect. It just means they compartmentalize and narrow-in on relevant issues with disregard to obstacles and irrelevant facts. Minimalism and simplicity are the road the wisdom. Is that not so?
I tend to distrust those who make things more complicated than they are. I am not particularly fond of the far right and I am also...
5-8-2008 12:38 AM
masbury
@n2: jetfla's right, you're funny!
5-8-2008 1:09 AM
dmegivern
Our family dynamics reflect this phenomenon well. You have to go back to my mom's family of origin. She grew up mentally ill, and they were all aware of it. When she ended up getting in a bind, the help from family was extremely limited both in terms of resources and how long they sustained the help. They are all Limbaugh conservatives. This group led by my well-to-do uncle (a self-made man) says that family and the private sector is responsible for caring for the ill, unemployable, the elderly, etc. YET, instead of helping their family, they let the government do it. They let Medicaid pay for their father's nursing home care. They let SSI and other programs take care of their mentally ill ...
5-8-2008 11:40 AM
papananook
N2-soon is not only funny --he delirious!
If you believe this article you are too. Because I care about equality doesn't make me unhappy but because my GOVERNEMT AND IT'S LEADERS DON'T makes me angry. And sad. Big difference. I'm quite "happy" bein' a left wing-socialist-commie-pinko kook....A long-haired hippie, bike-ridin', granola-chomping green freak. Happy-happy Joy-Joy !!! *TAKES BOW* Amon other sides to my Identity, I consider commitment to the poor, dienfranchised, handicapped, oppressed by war as a necessity to be happy.
5-8-2008 11:43 AM
papananook
i need spell-check however but you get the idea.."Among"
5-8-2008 11:44 AM
papananook
Kenstipe--It's not "profound" at all. It just means that not caring is easier.
5-8-2008 1:29 PM
masbury
Likewise, dmegivern, I never could be content in a job I did just for money - it had to be something world-changing enough that I would do it without pay if I could.
And likewise, papananook, I just don't think I have what it takes to be happy without being a part of something radical enough to end some suffering. I can't imagine not caring - it just is part of the package.
Some grief comes with caring. I ache sometimes, and have to turn off the news. But I'll be damned if I'll turn my back (OK, wait, yes, I'm a pastor and no, I don't mean it literally - it's a figure of speech). I want to figure out how to do more with what I've got! I want the applecart upset, as long as it ignores th...
5-8-2008 1:52 PM
jatfla
You're assuming that conservatives don't care about people. Not true; but an often repeated mischaracterization.
5-8-2008 1:58 PM
kmcolo
You're assuming...
jatfla, I think there is a whole lot of assuming going on here on all sides.
5-8-2008 11:05 PM
kenstipe
***Kenstipe--It's not "profound" at all. It just means that not caring is easier.***

papananook, who said anything about not caring? I think Conservatives care just as much as I do or just as much as Liberals do. Judging by the works of many Conservatives, you could even say that they care more.
5-8-2008 11:39 PM
jatfla
Agree Ken and k.
5-9-2008 12:53 AM
dmegivern
Masbury, I hear you totally. Often I am physically pained by all of the pain I am trying to manage. Two of my students losing their homes to fire, numerous others dealing with HIV or serious mental illness, running out of money junior year due to maxing out financial aid, single moms trying to work full time and raise kids properly while going to college. Then the news shows the worldwide strife and it becomes too much. But I could never turn my back on my fellow poor people without being eaten alive y my conscience.
5-9-2008 1:01 AM
dmegivern
What haunts me the most in terms of my social responsibilities was experiences like my 10th grade school year. My mom almost successfully committed suicide and I was trying to manage a house of five younger siblings alone. I remember so clearly how Uncle Social Darwin left me alone to handle the whole thing. He left me to handle everything at my mother's hospital bed while she was unconscious and all hooked up to tubes. I never want to abandon another human being when they most need reassurance, support, and help.
5-9-2008 12:17 PM
masbury
Thanks very much! I don't know why some of us feel it every day and others don't. Many, like you, are sensitized by their own past crisis. Once you've been there, nothing else is quite the same.

I can't say I've experienced trauma in the way you have. But when I hold my precious little grandson, and realize grandpas in Myanmar or Sudan love their little ones just as much, I just have to be a part of the repair of the problem. And while I feel grief from their situations, nothing is more satisfying than going to be feeling like I contributed some small thing to reducing someone's suffering. Like you, like papananook, I'm glad to be in the fight!
5-9-2008 12:27 PM
masbury
kenstipe, I'm a pastor in a pretty conservative denomination, and I have to agree that I've known hundreds of conservatives who were deeply caring people.
But - I won't have the words to say this quite as inoffensively as I mean it - it seems like in politics, our two main parties are the "Leave me alone" party and the "Let's fix the problem" party. And it has seemed to me in the last few years that "let's fix the problem" party has been more consistent with the direction I want the world to go.
5-9-2008 1:55 PM
BitDrifter
To generalize at the expense of accuracy I would say it is more like:

Our two main parties are the "Let's fix the problem without government" party and the "Let's fix the problem with government"

And if one believes government is the answer to all problems then I can see how one can conclude that "our two main parties are the "Leave me alone" party and the "Let's fix the problem" party."
5-9-2008 2:32 PM
jatfla
And also about how we confront problems. Do we enable the continuation of *bad* choices/decisions with misplaced compassion or do we confront their problems (with proper compassion) and seek a change in behavior and attitude? I'm speaking of both government and personal actions.

To permit detrimental and destructive courses of action is not a manifestation of genuine respect and love.
5-9-2008 2:41 PM
kmcolo
And if one believes government is the answer to all problems...
Which leaves the other party the one that believes government is not the answer to any problem (so let's get rid of the Pentagon).

So yes, an over simplification indeed as I think no one thinks that government is the answer to all problems.
5-9-2008 2:45 PM
kmcolo
Also an inaccurate simplification as government spending and debt have tended to go up during Republican administrations and with Bush, the size of the government as well.
5-9-2008 3:31 PM
kmcolo
Do we enable the continuation of *bad* choices/decisions with misplaced compassion or do we confront their problems (with proper compassion) and seek a change in behavior and attitude?
Like confronting a group of people who are taking out outrageous amounts of debt to fund a war that they botched despite being called anti-American along the way?
5-9-2008 3:37 PM
kmcolo
Do we enable the continuation of *bad* choices/decisions with misplaced compassion or do we confront their problems (with proper compassion) and seek a change in behavior and attitude?
Like confronting people who are choosing to destroy the environment because these people want short-term profit? Or confronting people who are afraid of change? It all depends on your perspective of the *bad* choice/decision and what constitutes "misplaced compassion".
5-10-2008 1:16 PM
dmegivern
I was rescued from a life a poverty by government educational programs like Head Start and Upward Bound. I was fed by school lunch and government cheese. No conservatives rushed in to help me as a parentified child caring for two mentally ill parents and five younger siblings almost alone until Upward Bound stepped in. Our LDS church brought us a rin of three types of popcorn every Christmas.

Through a government-funded program, I give 150% to getting my students caught up enough educationally to graduate from college and get out of poverty. My survival and ultimately my middle class status is entirely attributable to government intervention. This allowed me to rescue my yongest brother ...
5-10-2008 1:45 PM
dmegivern
Sorry for typos. I use Clipmarks mobile on a Moto Q and it can be hard to catch errors.

I want to add that all of my debt was incurred paying for food, shelter, clothing etc. for my younger siblings after I was given court custody when I was 24 years old and in graduate school. My pay ranged from $12,000 to a high of $24,000. A lot of poor people I know have extreme challenges of a similar nature.
5-10-2008 6:30 PM
dmegivern
Hilarious, look at all of the justification for inequality that has been provided by our right leaning clippers.
5-10-2008 9:48 PM
masbury
Thank you for sharing this! It is priceless! Several thoughts:

What a shame it is that people who are where you started out have critics running them down instead of cheerleaders building them up!

You have worked incredibly hard AND you have made use of government assistance. We are so polarized that the right thinks the left means personal grit is unimportant, while the left hears the right saying personal grit is all that matters. The truth is that emerging from poverty takes both, and neither is sufficient alone.

Your example also gives an excellent insight into the fact that people who are poor are often not so because they made bad decisions. All your decisions were good...
5-10-2008 9:50 PM
masbury
And I am so sorry for the loss of your brother!
5-11-2008 6:45 PM
kenstipe
Masbury: ***"let's fix the problem party"***?

Do you really trust either party wants to "fix" problems? People fix problems, Government tends to create problems and make them worse. I see the parties as the 'let's create a bigger problem for the world party' and the 'let's create a bigger problem for America party. I do not think fixing problems is either party's agenda. The problems *are* the agenda.

I think I agree with Bitdrifter. If I had to choose a party by what the government does, I think I would choose the party that does the least, not that the Republicans are that party. They do just as much damage.

You give us 2 choices, the "leave me alone party" and the "let's fix the pro...
5-12-2008 6:52 PM
dmegivern
Masbury, thank you so much for your honorable comments. I didn't see them immediately, because my Clipmarks mobile does not allow much exploration and has limited posts available. However, when I got on the computer I saw them and I was very touched. I spent most of my life being looked down on for being poor. It has been an exceptional long and difficult journey out of poverty, and I am so grateful to the people who support government programming, because without them, I would still be in poverty. Heck, I might not even be alive. Herman Melville has a piece called roughly, "What Redburn Saw at Lancelott's Hay" that tells the story of life before social services roughly 1850. If you can read...
5-12-2008 6:53 PM
dmegivern
Here is the last line of the story. I think you will appreciate its meaning. "

Surrounded as we are by the wants of fellow men, and yet given to follow our own pleasures, regardless of their pains, are we not like people sitting up with a corpse, and making merry in the house of the dead?"
5-16-2008 1:11 AM
masbury
Wow. I am going to have to look this up. Thanks! BTW, I included a thought or two of your in a sermon I preached last Sunday. It's called Pentecost, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, and Cyclone Nargis.
5-16-2008 1:22 AM
masbury
Found it by Googling - almost could not read it.
Let's not quit.
Let's not quit.
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