Christian Fundamentalist Beheads Daughter! - No Wait...

...they claimed... "they were within their constitutional rights when they decided to pray for their 15-month old daughter rather than take her to a doctor to treat her pneumonia."

Whoops. Here's another one. Leilani Neumann died of undiagnosed diabetes because her Mon and step Dad decided prayer would cure her. "Madeline died on Easter Sunday, 2008, while her mother, stepfather and other members of their Bible study group prayed over her."

Of course you all know this could go on forever, just like the behead...

Christian Fundamentalist Beheads Daughter! - No Wait...

...they claimed... "they were within their constitutional rights when they decided to pray for their 15-month old daughter rather than take her to a doctor to treat her pneumonia."

Whoops. Here's another one. Leilani Neumann died of undiagnosed diabetes because her Mon and step Dad decided prayer would cure her. "Madeline died on Easter Sunday, 2008, while her mother, stepfather and other members of their Bible study group prayed over her."

Of course you all know this could go on forever, just like the beheadings, just like the abortions.

It seems to me that if the religious put as much effort in saving innocent people from death as they did those not even born, it wouldn't sound so hypocritical.

One thing that is conveniently overlooked by Aces' tragic examples, is that they were caused in spite of and NOT because of any orthodox Christian teachings, laws or regulations.

Wrong!

Faith healing is deeply embedded in Biblical teachings. This makes it a CAUSE since the action of praying as a form of medicine is taught as a part of Christian doctrine. (Because it is.)

So it is "because of" and NOT "in spite of" as claimed. These people believe what their holy book tells them and it's *why* they believe it works! That makes it "because of" not in spite of.

Further, Christian doctrine also teaches the murder of one's children, by stoning for example, for certain trespa...

One thing that is conveniently overlooked by Aces' tragic examples, is that they were caused in spite of and NOT because of any orthodox Christian teachings, laws or regulations.

Wrong!

Faith healing is deeply embedded in Biblical teachings. This makes it a CAUSE since the action of praying as a form of medicine is taught as a part of Christian doctrine. (Because it is.)

So it is "because of" and NOT "in spite of" as claimed. These people believe what their holy book tells them and it's *why* they believe it works! That makes it "because of" not in spite of.

Further, Christian doctrine also teaches the murder of one's children, by stoning for example, for certain trespasses. It is our SECULAR laws that prevent such murder, and not some evolution of moral standards beyond the Old Testament god.

You must be out of your freakin' mind! Once again, there is no Christian doctrine, law or regulation where one can terminate the life of one's child. You must be insane or severly narrow minded to believe this absurdity.

I agree. One MUST be out of their mind to believe such absurdity. I therefore present to you... the Bible!


Children who refuse to obey their parents must be executed. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17

Children who mock their parents will have their eyes plucked out by ravens and eaten by eagle...

You must be out of your freakin' mind! Once again, there is no Christian doctrine, law or regulation where one can terminate the life of one's child. You must be insane or severly narrow minded to believe this absurdity.

I agree. One MUST be out of their mind to believe such absurdity. I therefore present to you... the Bible!


Children who refuse to obey their parents must be executed. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death. -- Exodus 21:15

He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 21:17

Children who mock their parents will have their eyes plucked out by ravens and eaten by eagles. -- Proverbs 30:17 (Ooops; my bad. It doesn't say to kill them, does it?)

Like Abraham, parents should be willing to kill their children for God. -- Genesis 22:2,10 (And some parents do, don't they?)
--


Now, let's not ignore the fact that "Faith healing is deeply embedded in Biblical teachings. This makes it a CAUSE since the action of praying as a form of medicine is taught as a part of Christian doctrine."

Are you still denying this, or shall I point out what your god says in his good book?

--
And finally re: your last interrogative on abortion: "How does your sovereign state protect these lives from secular ideologies?"

By determining at what point a mass of cells should be considered a viable "life". If at conception, then god easily aborts more "lives" than all abortions combined via miscarriage.

And I'm not saying that they shouldn't be protected. I'm asking why you don't spend as much energy on protecting the LIVING.

/ You will hate Christianity forever and will certainly bend over backwards to cover for Islam. /

No, that's what YOU do when you cover for any superstition. They ALL condone killing others because the god of their book says so. And they believe in faith healing because their book says so. They murder for their god, the innocent, the children, or any person who doesn't buy into their special religious club.

And you've heard not one thing that was said, have you? Typical conservative.

Let me spell this out for you. ALL superstition is dangerous. Both yours and theirs. They say the same thing. Hell, they're even the same god!

And just because the Old Testament god morphed into a nicer p...

/ You will hate Christianity forever and will certainly bend over backwards to cover for Islam. /

No, that's what YOU do when you cover for any superstition. They ALL condone killing others because the god of their book says so. And they believe in faith healing because their book says so. They murder for their god, the innocent, the children, or any person who doesn't buy into their special religious club.

And you've heard not one thing that was said, have you? Typical conservative.

Let me spell this out for you. ALL superstition is dangerous. Both yours and theirs. They say the same thing. Hell, they're even the same god!

And just because the Old Testament god morphed into a nicer person in no way changes the fact that the SAME god of both religions call for the killing of children for various reasons.

There is no difference between a faith killing and an honor killing. They're BOTH because of (not in spite of) a religious belief.

Bad conservative.

When is the last time you heard a practicing Christian execute their children for disobedience?

In the case of Abraham was a single prophetic event. Plain and simple God does not require a proof of our faith by attempting to kill our firstborn.

Faith healing is a good in itself and NOT a substitution for medical attention, even though some religious (and non-religious) insist this is the case. If it was the case, there wouldn't be any Catholic, Methodist, Episcopalian, etc. hospitals worldwide.

As far as this statement goes...

I asked, "How does your sovereign state protect these lives from secular ideologies?"

You answered:

By determining at what point a mass of cells shou...

When is the last time you heard a practicing Christian execute their children for disobedience?

In the case of Abraham was a single prophetic event. Plain and simple God does not require a proof of our faith by attempting to kill our firstborn.

Faith healing is a good in itself and NOT a substitution for medical attention, even though some religious (and non-religious) insist this is the case. If it was the case, there wouldn't be any Catholic, Methodist, Episcopalian, etc. hospitals worldwide.

As far as this statement goes...

I asked, "How does your sovereign state protect these lives from secular ideologies?"

You answered:

By determining at what point a mass of cells should be considered a viable "life".

If you believe the state has ultimate authority on morals and science for that matter, then my friend, you will be sadly disappointed.

Plain and simple God does not require a proof of our faith by attempting to kill our firstborn.

So the story of Abraham was what? Another parable? Out of context? A mis-translation? God kills the first born by the wholesale. Read Exodus 12:29-30.

Faith healing is a good in itself and NOT a substitution for medical attention...

"Faith healing is a good in itself" ...apparently not good enough to heal as Jesus in the bible claims.

"...and NOT a substitution for medical attention.." You got that one right!

If you believe the state has ultimate authority on morals and science for that matter, then my friend, you will be sadly disappointed.

You as...

Plain and simple God does not require a proof of our faith by attempting to kill our firstborn.

So the story of Abraham was what? Another parable? Out of context? A mis-translation? God kills the first born by the wholesale. Read Exodus 12:29-30.

Faith healing is a good in itself and NOT a substitution for medical attention...

"Faith healing is a good in itself" ...apparently not good enough to heal as Jesus in the bible claims.

"...and NOT a substitution for medical attention.." You got that one right!

If you believe the state has ultimate authority on morals and science for that matter, then my friend, you will be sadly disappointed.

You asked: "When is the last time you heard a practicing Christian execute their children for disobedience?"

That set of morals came from YOUR god. So don't start pretending like it was a "bad" thing or you might have to admit the truth about your god.

As you know, our secular laws aren't perfect, but our morality and our laws have evolved light years past that!

So much for the idea of absolute morals. It doesn't seem like your god is a likely candidate for providing them (unless you think stoning is still a valid punishment for child disobedience.) Do you?

If not, then suffice it to say, your morals do not agree with that of your god. (And thank goodness for that!)

So the story of Abraham was what? Another parable? Out of context? A mis-translation?

None of the above. It was prophetic event of what was to come, the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

"Faith healing is a good in itself" ...apparently not good enough to heal as Jesus in the bible claims.

Jesus did not have as His priority to heal all that are sick. Many times through our suffering, we are brought closer to God because of it. 2 Cor 12:7-9, is an example of this. If we were promised health and wealth, then we would obviously be in the wrong religion: Mk 8:34.

As you know, our secular laws aren't perfect, but our morality and our laws have evolved light ...

read more»

So the story of Abraham was what? Another parable? Out of context? A mis-translation?

None of the above. It was prophetic event of what was to come, the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

"Faith healing is a good in itself" ...apparently not good enough to heal as Jesus in the bible claims.

Jesus did not have as His priority to heal all that are sick. Many times through our suffering, we are brought closer to God because of it. 2 Cor 12:7-9, is an example of this. If we were promised health and wealth, then we would obviously be in the wrong religion: Mk 8:34.

As you know, our secular laws aren't perfect, but our morality and our laws have evolved light years past that!

It is now lawful for medical doctors to stab an unborn in the cranium and suck the children's brains out, by the millions. Do you call this evolution? Is this a great leap forward?

It was prophetic event of what was to come, the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

So god telling Abraham to kill his son was a prophetic event foretelling the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?

Wow! I have to admit it's brilliant! A person could spend decades trying to figure out how that works... which is the whole method of Christian apologetics.

Just say that whatever is written MEANS something else. And then pretend like it's true. It completely eliminates reason, which is the enemy of faith, so it's perfect! It's downright brilliant!

Hey, let me try. Uh, the story of Jeptha and the sacrifice of his daughter to god REALLY means that god's eternal love trandsends all eart...

It was prophetic event of what was to come, the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

So god telling Abraham to kill his son was a prophetic event foretelling the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross?

Wow! I have to admit it's brilliant! A person could spend decades trying to figure out how that works... which is the whole method of Christian apologetics.

Just say that whatever is written MEANS something else. And then pretend like it's true. It completely eliminates reason, which is the enemy of faith, so it's perfect! It's downright brilliant!

Hey, let me try. Uh, the story of Jeptha and the sacrifice of his daughter to god REALLY means that god's eternal love trandsends all earthly bounds!

Cool huh? God allows Jeptha to kill a bunch of people in exchange for the life of his daughter REALLY means that god is chock full of love and great morals!

See? I can do it too!

As far as abortion? If we both agree that it's evil, will you admit that when your god does it... it's still evil?

If not, then it's rather moot, isn't it? To me, evil is evil, no matter who does it. If to you it depends on WHO does it, then your concept of morality is a fraud.

@Efrain

"I think your hatred of God somehow has you..."

My hatred of God? I don't believe in stupid or immoral gods, and you shouldn't either. (Either attribute disqualifies them from the title.)

And how does your comment refute the truth of anything that I said?

Doesn't it strike you as odd that an infinite being would require the blood sacrifice of an innocent lfie AT ALL?

(Never mind to pay for the so-called sins of the guilty.)

But perhaps you can explain the moral genius behind sacrificing an innocent girl so that her father can kill at will in battle. This is first century superstition. No (real) god is that morally bankrupt.

Are you even aware how much mental ...

@Efrain

"I think your hatred of God somehow has you..."

My hatred of God? I don't believe in stupid or immoral gods, and you shouldn't either. (Either attribute disqualifies them from the title.)

And how does your comment refute the truth of anything that I said?

Doesn't it strike you as odd that an infinite being would require the blood sacrifice of an innocent lfie AT ALL?

(Never mind to pay for the so-called sins of the guilty.)

But perhaps you can explain the moral genius behind sacrificing an innocent girl so that her father can kill at will in battle. This is first century superstition. No (real) god is that morally bankrupt.

Are you even aware how much mental twisting you must do to state that an infinite being told a man to kill his own son, as a form of prophesy to foretell the coming of another person? WTF? No (real) god is that morally bankrupt, or that inept at communication.

I believe you have been hypnotized to relinquish your mind.

Perhaps you should rethink religion by STARTING with the presupposition that God is not stupid. That a god is the most intelligent being that could possibly exist!

And THEN read the bible.

You, unfortunately, started with the presupposition that the bible was the work or word of a god and THEN tried to make sense of it.

Having to pretend it was true because a god wrote it, you became hypnotized by the pretending.

Instead...

Start with the fact that God is not stupid, and you will see very quickly that the bible represents the work or word of no god.

If I showed you case after case of children dying as a result of Christians taking the bible as true, (i.e., prayer works), would your mind see said atrocities?

My bet is that the answer is "no". You would find an excuse to blow it off and ignore the fact that what the bible says about prayer as a cure, is patently false. But your hypnosis won't allow you to admit it no matter how many dead children hit the floor.

You will inevetably just say "what it says is not what it means" "out of context" "interpretation" "parables" "mis-translations" yada, yada, yada.

Never will you admit that it's simply false. So god's word as written continues to be a lie. But as children keep dying because of...

If I showed you case after case of children dying as a result of Christians taking the bible as true, (i.e., prayer works), would your mind see said atrocities?

My bet is that the answer is "no". You would find an excuse to blow it off and ignore the fact that what the bible says about prayer as a cure, is patently false. But your hypnosis won't allow you to admit it no matter how many dead children hit the floor.

You will inevetably just say "what it says is not what it means" "out of context" "interpretation" "parables" "mis-translations" yada, yada, yada.

Never will you admit that it's simply false. So god's word as written continues to be a lie. But as children keep dying because of it... you'll just change the subject and keep pretending.

It's not a lie. We just need another way of interpreting it. Some word.

If I showed you case after case of children dying as a result of Christians taking the bible as true, (i.e., prayer works), would your mind see said atrocities?

There are many distorted interpretations of the Bible, that is nothing new under the sun. The real question is whether orthodox Christianity actually teaches faith healing of the sick instead of medical attention.

My bet is that the answer is "no". You would find an excuse to blow it off and ignore the fact that what the bible says about prayer as a cure, is patently false. But your hypnosis won't allow you to admit it no matter how many dead children hit the floor.

Hey, I condemn the negligence of the...

If I showed you case after case of children dying as a result of Christians taking the bible as true, (i.e., prayer works), would your mind see said atrocities?

There are many distorted interpretations of the Bible, that is nothing new under the sun. The real question is whether orthodox Christianity actually teaches faith healing of the sick instead of medical attention.

My bet is that the answer is "no". You would find an excuse to blow it off and ignore the fact that what the bible says about prayer as a cure, is patently false. But your hypnosis won't allow you to admit it no matter how many dead children hit the floor.

Hey, I condemn the negligence of these parents as much as you do. One thing you refuse to understand is that these few cases do not represent Christianity as whole. For example, why do you focus on these unfortunate cases of faith healing vs. medicine and not on the many more cases of lives saved in Christian hospitals? Why do you refuse to acknowledge the many medical treatments brought about in hospitals like St. Jude? Why don't you acknowledge Biblical verses like, "Hold the physician in honor, for he is essential to you, and God it was who established his profession." Sirach 38:1.

If we can't get past this point, then I'll be wasting my time with further commenting.

There are many distorted interpretations of the Bible, that is nothing new under the sun. The real question is whether orthodox Christianity actually teaches faith healing of the sick instead of medical attention.

No, that's not the real question at all. The real question is does it mean what it SAYS.

This makes your interpretation and every other interpretation false whenever it is interpreted in any way OTHER than what it SAYS!

why do you focus on these unfortunate cases of faith healing vs. medicine and not on the many more cases of lives saved in Christian hospitals?

Because these people are among those that take the bible at its word. They believe that ...

There are many distorted interpretations of the Bible, that is nothing new under the sun. The real question is whether orthodox Christianity actually teaches faith healing of the sick instead of medical attention.

No, that's not the real question at all. The real question is does it mean what it SAYS.

This makes your interpretation and every other interpretation false whenever it is interpreted in any way OTHER than what it SAYS!

why do you focus on these unfortunate cases of faith healing vs. medicine and not on the many more cases of lives saved in Christian hospitals?

Because these people are among those that take the bible at its word. They believe that what it SAYS is what it MEANS. They are at least honest.

Biblical verses like, "Hold the physician in honor, for he is essential to you, and God it was who established his profession." Sirach 38:1.

??

You quoting from the Apocrypha as a biblical verse?

Here are the words of Jesus according to the bible:

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing will be impossible

James 5:15-16 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well

Mark 9:23 All things are possible to him who believes

John chaper 14:12 - 14 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the work that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Now, to interpret those words as anything OTHER than what they say is to flat out lie. *Face it. If god meant anything OTHER than what it says, it would simply say the other thing.

And that's why we can't get past this point. I refuse to lie. Your apologetics, on the other hand, is simply pretending the words mean something other than what they say because you and I both know that what they say turns out to be false, as these poor believers found out.