 thisnamecantbetaken says: But God still has some growing up to do. Wright argues that much of the problem isn’t with the religious texts or teachings themselves, but with the social conditions — the “facts on the ground” — that shape the sort of God we choose to create. Change the world, and you change the God. “If history naturally pushes people toward moral improvement, toward moral truth, and their God, as they conceive their God, grows accordingly, becoming morally richer, then maybe this growth is evidence of some higher purpose, and maybe — conceivably — the source of that purpose is worthy of the name divinity.” This article could be just another side of the argument from those who would like to prove that God does not exist. Is there an "increasing goodness of our species"? And how would one measure that? We are much better at taking care of larger groups of people, true, but we are also better at killing and alienating much larger groups. If God does not exist, this gives credence to Science as something that can be relied on to "save the species" from itself. Let us spend our tax dollars on NASA's search for water on the moon. Let us rely more heavily on the endless stream of new drugs whose profits are making very few alot richer. We are God. This should shed a lot of insight into how God evolves along with our own maturity, or lack thereof. what matters is the choices that the people makeExactly, inside each of us is the key to peace on this planet. Whatever happens to us after we die shoudl not concern us because we have no control over it. We can only control how we live right now. @kat I don't think the author is saying God doesn't exist. What he [iis[/i]] saying, is: that he is tracking people’s conception of the divine, not the divine itself.[b]Through the ages and across denominations, cultures etc, people "see" the God differently, as we "evolve" (through both time.and space). How the scriptures are interpreted and understood, [I]does[/] change. Wright claims that the change is for the better. We're becoming more "moral". Now, I'm not sure I agree with that at all (or not), but it's an interesting idea @disenchanted We are GodI just read an interesting article yesterday called [url=http://twm.co.nz/saht_god.html]"A Scientist's[b]... NOT that I agree with everything the article had to say, mind you. It's just yet another opinion, I thought was interesting. I personally see a "Creator" as being, as being FAR from the "religious" kind and waaaay more towards a "cosmic consciousness" of sorts. In a quantum physical kind of way. So to speak. .  (Rom 1:20) For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, (Rom 1:21) because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Rom 1:22) Professing to be wise, they became fools, (Rom 1:23) and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man— Translation? Are you saying you believe people who seek a less "hallulujah-ish" approach to the idea of a God, are wrong? That YOUR way, despite thousands of different religions, ideas and concepts in the world, is the only way? I highly doubt that. I think if anyone TRULY seeks a God, then ALL sacred texts should be considered, not just our own. ALL religions should be considered. ALL the ancients and also all the science one can swallow. To seek out a common thread in all there is to know, is to me, the only non-biased way to go about it. He or she is only quoting from scripture because they have no mind of their own. A religious zombie reads the scripture and pretends to understand what they say. But when pressed for meaning , can find no answers of their own. They will only repeat more scripture. And think they have won . For me, it is a counter-wisdom. In the parable of the prodigal son one wonders what to think about a Father who acts this way. Is it more than we would do? Shouldn't he at least have been given a reprimand and put through a probationary period? Do you think God is like that? And what about the older son? Is he entitled to his sense of unfairness? Isn't his reaction understandable? Isn't he right about duty and obligations? Or is he a jerk? Is he unable to see what parental compassion involves? Finally, will he be able to join the celebration, or will he let his feelings of resentment and sense of unfairness keep him outside? You are correct TN, that how we see God is very important.  Yeah Deb ! The article is correct. "God" is a construct of mankind and the evidence is in the writings and alterations of the dogma as time passes on. The only people who can't see that are people who don't want to see that. Obviously Jay didn't learn his logics lesson from AtlLiberal who pointed out in another clip that using quotes from a questionable source to prove that source is a logical fallacy. But logic, rationality, and intelligence doesn't seem to make up a large part of some people's thinking. When God created logic, he fashioned a glitch that would prove he did not exist because he wanted to make sure that Atheists had something to talk about.  Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. Now you are interchanging God with religion. Are you hoping we missed that? Does it matter? They are both man made. The existence of God can not be proved or unproved by science. And you are misleading people by saying God is man made when you have no way of knowing this. Religion may be man made, but any claims beyond that are only speculation. Any god created by man would be better described as an IDOL. These are thoroughly examined and explained in the bible. I'm with Katsteevns on this one. Hide in the unknown, its where ignorance gets its power. Of course, once you start to attribute characteristics to your unknowable and disprovable god then he starts to become provable and knowable. By the very characteristics given to god in the bible we do know that the bible god is nothing more than the made up fancy of tribal bronze age goat herders. And using parts of a source to prove that source is what we call bad logic. Hide in the unknown, its where ignorance gets its power.Must we stoop? Of course, once you start to attribute characteristics to yourHe is unknowable? I invite you to read the gospels. Why would you try to disprove God using tools he himself created, namely wisdom? Must we stoop?the truth is stooping? Maybe I'm wrong then. Show me the proof that the bible is fact, that it is not something created by bronze age humans as part of their mythology, or that anything in it about Jesus is really true. Using the bible to prove itself is a bit of a logical fallacy so I would be eager to see your proof that religion doesn't reside in ignorance of the unknown. He is unknowable? I invite you to read the gospels.And that is exactly why I know the mythology you worship is fantasy. Why would you try to disprove God using tools he himself created, namely wisdom?Prove he created wisdom. Seems to me that humanity has done... Let us wander together through the gospels and see if your arguments still hold water. I agree the basics are the same. But this doesn't prove the message is man made. The message existed long before the bible was even dreamed up. It's man made. Ever hear of Mithra? Many of the tenants of Jesus existed in Buddhism. There are hundreds of prophets that existed before and at the same time as Jesus who had the same basic properties of wise men, miracles, death and resurrection, and messages. It's a little tough to claim a source to man's genius when mankind had been pronouncing it long before the god's they were attributed to were made up. Doesn't it say in the bible that God demanded Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge? Does this then mean he meant for humans to be nothing more then dumb animals? So, you are saying that the bible is a just a bunch of nuts who traveled to China to collect all Buddha's wisdom and the wisdom of countless other prophets. Then they collaborated to create a god just so they could what, control people? Or, the Christians were just a Jewish sect made up of rotten apples who decided to destroy the hopes of their people by creating an alternate god? No, I'm saying that the bible is nothing more than a bunch of platitudes that people cobbled together and said were god inspired. Many ideas and thoughts that Christians try to claim gifted from god actually existed long before the religion was dreamed up in other societies. I believe I pointed that out before. Did you miss it? And if you want to get right down to it and take the bible at its word it was Satan who ushered humanity into a state of intelligence above simple animals and it is god that kills all through the bible with Satan never doing murderous deeds although he gets blamed for them. God is also revealed to be a liar and manipulator because he claimed to eat from the forbidden... bunch of platitudes that people cobbled together and said were god inspired.So, Jesus was created out of thin air? the forbidden true would lead to immediate deathImmediate death? No, I don't see anything in there saying death would be "immediate". God was a murderer. Well, death is not as final as people think, so God's cruelty is a matter of perspective. Because of the temporal nature of death, acting childish was his prerogative. But the NT clears up any questions as to his intentions. So, Jesus was created out of thin air?Good question. Find me some historical evidence that supports him. At best you'll find mentions of him by indication or name, but nothing on his life or deeds. Anything we have is worse than second hand passed on over decades with obvious embellishments and exaggerations. I think it safe to say that yes, Jesus's image and deeds were created out of thing air. God's cruelty is a matter of perspective.One man's mercy is another man's cruelty eh? And you find nothing wrong with that? Sad. But the NT clears up any questions as to his intentions.Right, because the world, or even Christianity, as one sin... Anything we have is worse than second hand passed on over decades with obvious embellishments and exaggerations.He answered that by telling the Jewish priests that no sign would be given that would prove he was the Son of God. One man's mercy is another man's cruelty eh? And you find nothing wrong with that? Sad.If you were a god ,you would be the one making the rules. He changed the rules for the new covenant as well. And the rules will change again later as he indicated. Christianity has thousands of variants of its own religion in the United States alone - its because its all made up by men.Also referenced to in the NT as false gospels. If the bible itself didn't lend itself to contradiction and inaccuracyFind me a contradiction in Jesus' testimony. If people reading the bible didn't fall into battles of interpretationIf God had a message, and there was a man who sincerely wanted to receive it, do you think that another man could somehow block that message? You have got to give God a little more credit than that. It just all depends on how deeply one feels the need to be rescued from this life that has no real meaning without a god. He answered that by telling the Jewish priests that no sign would be given that would prove he was the Son of God.Wow, you really put the story of kissing Hank's ass into perspective! But I guess you are ignorant of the passage in Mathew 12:38-39
Keep this in mind for your later question of contradictions by Jesus in the bible. He changed the... <cont from cutoff> and there was a man who sincerely wanted to receive itThere's that arrogance again! Who are you to say who is and is not sincere in their efforts to find god? I know that you are impervious to a little rational thought and objective thinking, but come on. Even this is a little much. Caught a typo as well. Should be Omnipotence, <b>Omniscience</b>, and free will. Oortcloud, don't forget, too, that on numerous occasions Jesus told the apostles and other of his followers that they would live to see the last days. I could go and look those up, but I don't feel like hauling out one of my bibles (we all know where to find those verses anyway). That brings up a number of possibilities:
Any way ... Good point Jorjor! I lose track of all the contradictions and blatant inconsistencies of the bible. I don't think I've heard a new argument from the believer crowd in over 10 years. It's the same old crap over and over again. I wish they'd get together and compare notes on what portions of their belief have been completely exposed and come up with some new material instead of regurgitating the same stuff. But I guess they can't when they are locked into a bronze age book. Kissing Hank's ass. So, you are saying God doesn't come through on his promises. Speaking of kissing ass. Most people do it every day at work for much less than a million bucks. They do it to keep their jobs. Okay, so you have the sign of Jonah. This could help explain why you see nothing in the way of evidence pointing to Jesus. That was my point. One wonders how a perfect being can change, being a perfect god andCould a god do what he wants or what? Your kid will view you as he wishes after discipline and not always in a favorable light. And the story he tells his friends of what happened may or may not be accurate. And I'm sure you lucked out and were indoctrinated into the right oneAs if this event were an impossibility. The gospels explain how this can happen without even a hind of arrogance. Questions 1 through 6 do not address my question of finding a contradiction in his testimony. The message is what needs to be focused on as I said before. Of course a tainted religious institution is gonna screw things up to their advantage, especially in order to gain power. There's that arrogance again! Who are you to say who is and is not sincere in their efforts to find god?For one thing, man who is sincere in his search has things shown to him by the HS. One of those things is that you do not force your will upon others,, nor do you gather up treasures on earth. This right here alone narrows the playing field considerably. Jesus told the apostles and other of his followers that they would live to see the last daysJorjor found an inconsistency in his testimony!!!! There is one. Keep them coming! Although the apostle John did actually see the last days and wrote it down in Revelation. So, you are saying God doesn't come through on his promises.No, you idiot, I'm saying that you have to be a real gullible git to believe that crap. They do it to keep their jobs.You do realize you just confirmed that religion is a fear based system with its god a construct of human social relations given characteristics based on human experience? Okay, so you have the sign of Jonah.In other words you are not interested in finding any truths and when the claims or challenges you make are answered and defeated you'll just bury your head deeper. Could a god do what he wants or what?No, not if it falls outside the grounds of ratio... No, not if it falls outside the grounds of rationality.And what makes you think that rationality is something to be relied upon when it comes to finding a good path for mankind to travel on? Tell me which is the greater arrogance, worshiping rationality(worshiping man basically) or worshiping god? Forget about religion, it is not religion that brought about the scourge of capitalism? Man has not to this point harnessed rationality(he can't even feed his own kind), don't expect him to do it any time soon. He is incapable, look at the numbers. Rationality does not produce miracles, but nothing short of one will save us. Survival of the fittest is what animals of prey do. I ... Rationality is a TOOL created by god and you are making it out to be God himself. You are a preacher for the religion of logic and you don't even know it. The Israelites worshiped the golden calf, crafted by the things God created, and were killed for it. You will probably be cut a break because of your ignorance, but not without making payment for those who fell by your sword. Logic is as useless as the golden calf in getting you what you want. Permission to judge the value of a human life has not been granted to you and for good reason. You haven't the faculties to do so for one, and secondly, you haven't been given the authority by the creator. |
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