 Djiezes says: Also check out the (more in depth) linked article itself: "Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies" fascinating. important clip, thanx Djiezes Religion should make society and humanity much better. If it doesnt it means , i beleive , that either a) It is not being practiced correctly , ie people talking the talk, but not 'walking the walk', or b) Its the wrong religion, or c) A mixture of both. If religion is defined as Guidance from our Creator, then it is stupid to assume that it doenst make humanity better when humanity follow it. If that is what studies try to show, then it is the studies that are flawed. Wikked stuff !  I think it is more about the US than it is about religion per se. If you took the US out of the data I think the relationship between religiosity and "societal health" would become much weaker, perhaps disappear (with the possible exception of abortions, but even if you do have a relationship, that gets into issues of causality that you cannot really address with this study's methods). However, I think the Skeptic.com title is right on, and people in the US ought to be asking, if religion has all these great effects, how come we are not seeing them even though the US is one of the most religious societies among advanced industrialized democracies? Will prayer in school really increase ethical behavior among Americans? This clip is interesting and I think says something about popular religion in the United States... a lot of it is non-substantial b.s. But I think it is also important, as I believe jklugman pointed out, not to "throw the baby out with the bathwater". I've been thinking about this topic since the study came out, & suggest reading the thoughtful reflections of psychologist David Myers... http://www.davidmyers.org/Brix?pageID=122 This is an important clip- thanks for posting it! I think in the US religion makes people happier but at the same time more naive eg happier because they believe in life after death rather than nothing after death. Naive because they just accept what any 'preacher' says even if he is completely wrong . So all a devious politician has to do to buy the people is to appear connected to religion in some way, and the people may flock towards him. Here I am comparing with people in the UK who are very pessimitic regarding religion but their pessimism makes them not so naive. Instead of believing whatever the media say or politicians say, the British are sceptical and are quite suspicious. In the US the story is quite different. Let me know if I ... The social gospel is very often underlooked and underpracticed by alot of well-meaning Christians. It's too bad; there is something to be said for the beautitudes and the greatest commandment. Why do you think it is underlooked and underpracticed debbyski? I think the reason why the US is so high in all of these lists in correlation with religion is mainly due to the confusing messages the average American receives every day. Especially the youth. Religion, School, The government, TV, Games, Music, etc all preach opposing or incompatible views. Nobody really talks to them about what they see without trying to shove their ideals and message down their throats. Kids then become either desensitized or confused. Many of the other societies.countries shown in the study have more liberal societies, or at least less conflicting societies. America is a country of extremes. It's freedoms of speech, religion, etc are what make it such a great pla... PS: removing religion might solve some problems, but most people need religion to act as a moral compass, or anchor.. others need to believe in something bigger than themselves.. others need it to blame their misfortunes on and praise for their good luck. Without it, they could and lily would drift into depression, etc. That's my opinion though... Ali, Because of greed and the self-centeredness and underlying smugness of faith-based salvation as the only means of salvation. Do you think that non faith people have no self centerdness and smugness. Also what if faith based salvation was truly the only means of salvation? Where would your arguments be then? You need to consider all options debbyski. You cant just dismiss a claim without justification. Faith based means it is rooted in belief in the Creator. And so if there is a creator then how can there be salvation for those that do not believe in the Creator? Think about it. Faith based means it is rooted in belief in the Creator. And so if there is a creator then how can there be salvation for those that do not believe in the Creator? Think about it.Faith based in faith in a creator... Not all faiths and religions have a single creator as their base (or any creator for that matter). What is a not faith based religion then???? Ali, you misunderstand me, I'm speaking of the "my particular faith based" smugness as the only means to salvation, not meaning faith based as geniune belief in the creator, but the dismissing of all others who do not believe in that particular path to salvation. You can call the creator by any name you wish; that is a attempt to humanize and therfore understand. So, I'm speaking of the particular hubris of claiming one's bible, path, or interpretation of scripture or knowledge of the creator as the only path to salvation. I think I understand what you mean debbyski. Please correct me if i not. For me it is wrong to claim your path is the only path and be arrogant about it, as if it is guaranteed that you will actually attain it. But it is ok for a person to claim it but without arrogance and with the wish to explain it to others should they wish to listen to you explain it. The issue for me is how you go about proclaiming your proclaimation not about the proclamation itself. The proclamation maybe right and it maybe wrong. Only, God almighty, if you believe in Him knows what is right and what is wrong for sure. We just give it our best guess or effort. Is this explaination ok? Absolutely a great explanation. I think how you go about proclaiming your proclaimation is by living your proclaimation. The proclaimation itself is the easy part. When I gave food to the poor, they called me a saint. When I asked why the poor were hungry, they called me a Communist. Yes , thankyou Debbyski. Living one's beliefs is so much harder than proclaiming or defending them. Hence the nice phrase, 'walking the talk'. Or the version : "Does he walk the talk, or just talk the talk?" take care ali The study is flawed in that it states, "The U.S. is one of the most religious countries in the Western world." and then goes on to compare the general population's moral status rather than the religious population's moral status. I do not deny that murders, rape, incest, etc., etc., happen within the Christian community, but I do say they are much more likely to happen outside of the religious community than within. I stipulate here that the religious community includes newly committed people who have not studied or practiced religion for most of their lives, and so have not learned to apply the guidelines of religion so the studies will reflect a great deal of apparent disparity between C... Our country's government and media and educational institutions are not greatly influenced or controlled by the religious majority while secularist countries have secularists in control of their media and government. This too would reflect a greater influence over personal behaviors. In Russia for instance, when they make an arrest, the police have a heyday beating the crap out of the suspect. There are no Criminal Rights in Russia. Criminals are more violent, but less likely to face off on minor offenses. Casual crime and crimes of convenience are reduced greatly. Besides, the Secularists here are doing all they can to erradicate all Christian influence on society. Judge you interested in a Challenge? Sorry for the delay getting back to you. I didn't link this topic so happened back across it after a week of travel. Ali; On my website at http://judgeright.blogspot.com It's open to comments at all times. Keep it clean though, my family reads that blog. I'm in the middle of moving so don't expect rapid replies. If the ten commandments ( or similar tenets used by other groups ) were practised by religions, a positive effect may result. This is pure conjecture as it has never been done. Power, greed, the collective human ego (we really are not as intelligent as we like to pretend) and so on, prevent it from happening. Anyone who is male, heterosexual and incapable of individual thought is welcomed by religions. To carry on their lives they need law and order; so are less likely to break the laws (unless they feel in a position of power). |
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