 righthand says: After half of our entire Irish population was wiped out in half a decade with what started out as a potato disease and is referred to as the 'Great Famine'. We Irish too carried a large chip in our shoulders against the authorities who exaberated the problem. We got over it. We remember but have got on with life. We are regarded and feel the happiest nation in the western world. And that despite the missing northern part of our island. It was clear as day that Jews living the good life in reasonable prosperous America, have not forsaken their chip! Can they? May be, like the addictive personality, it is next to impossible. May be, the more we criticise Israel for its blatant errors, the more convinced they are that the whole world is against them! So maybe, the more we criticise - justifiably - the worse the suffering of the Palestinians! Just looking for that missing "sense of proportion", justice and old fashioned fair play, just like most other warm blooded Irishmen, as I'm s That's the thing that so many people overlook. The Irish victory against the British, like the Israeli victories against the Arab states, didn't bring them peace. Before the ink was dry on the Anglo-Irish Treaty there were shells falling on the Four Courts and the Irish Civil War began. Peace came not with victory, but with weariness from war. This is the most important "sense of perspective" that any jingoist needs to come to. Jews have been maligned, persecuted and butchered for 2000 years. To compare the Irish famine with the locaust is ludicrous. Millions of Irish died, but it wasn't through being shoved into gas chambers at gunpoint. And to come out swinging that they have a chip on their shoulder is remarkably petty. If ever a nation had a right to hate, this one certainly has. However, I stand amazed and in awe of their benevolence towards us. They have chosen instead to continue to be the most productive, creative, inventive and tenacious nation on the planet. Where would we be without their scientific and medical genius. They have triumphed over all the world has thrown at them. They are the best ... correction: holocaust The Irish victory against the British, like the Israeli victories against the Arab states, didn't bring them peace. Before the ink was dry on the Anglo-Irish Treaty there were shells falling on the Four Courts and the Irish Civil War began.ouyangwulong The shells were from British guns under British direction. A detail, but name British colonies where there was not a subsequent civil war. The 'natives' at fault in all cases or is there a pattern? The recent peace was not because the natives fought thenselves to a standstill. One benefit was having the best trained army in the world. A pity the US learnth no lessons from the Brits before their excursion into Iraq. The reaso... Jews have been maligned, persecuted and butchered for 2000 years.Why are we into comparisons of 2000 years? Does this not feed into the very 'victimhood' that I was writing of? I'd say that what you write makes my point. To compare the Irish famine with the holocaust is ludicrous.I made no comparison with the Irish Famine. To do so would defeat the whole point of my argument, don't you see? I didn't write that we lost more than half our entire population in 10 years. If it was 90% or 5%, the point is the 'chip'. And to come out swinging that they have a chip on their shoulder is remarkably petty.You think their 'chip' is "remarkably petty". ... Of course they were British shells falling on the Four Courts, but it was Michael Collins who ordered it! In the end, I totally agree with you about the pattern. We may end a war in name, but it will continue by proxy so long as the spirit of war, vengeance and violence pervades. In the end, Michael Collins was killed in his own County Cork by his fellow Irishmen. This, to me, is the real tragedy, that the cycle of violence can break free of the political boundaries that "justified" it and spill over indiscriminately into the lives of all the people near it. Righthand, I appreciate your views and agree to disagree. I said what I said and I stand by it save for equating the holocaust with the Irish famine - I misunderstood. Sorry! I feel passionate about the Jews and Israel and if that comes across as gushing, you are the judge As to my sincerity, God is my judge. As too understanding the complexities and finer nuances of Israel and the middle east situation, I'll leave that to those more intellectually gifted than I. I bow out of fray! michellezm I have no doubt about your sincerity. That came through quite clearly in your words. Innocent or naive, maybe, but that's not so bad. In religion, you are obliged to be informed. I believe that all citizen have the same obligation to be informed on matters that effect peace and human rights in the world. When one holds views and support for Israel then I believe you have a bigger obligation to be well informed. As too understanding the complexities and finer nuances of Israel and the middle east situation. I'll leave that to those more intellectually gifted than I. I bow out of fray!I'm sorry if I came on so ... If there were no Israel, I would be a Zionist. When there was no Ireland, I would support the IRA under the First Dail. (Although for peace I think I would have probably supported the Anglo-Irish Treaty) Since now there is no Palestine, I support the Palestinians. I support an independent Kurdistan. I support independence for Tibet, Eastern Turkestan, and Taiwan. If the South (in the US) wants to rise again, I say let them. I would like to think that my values remain the same on these issues across the board. Michellezm: On a separate note, if you still are interested in this subject... Many have compared the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians to the Apartheid in South Africa. I can't help but noticing you appear to be from South Africa, while most people who employ the metaphor are not. What do you think of this comparison? Is it accurate? If not, how so? In my opinion, there is no comparison Ouyang... I don't view Israel as being an oppressor of the Palestinians. By that I am not saying that Israel has not been hard on the Palestinians, but they are, after all, in a fight for their very survival and the retention of their land. Israel is not trying to enslave, dominate and exploit the Palestinians. However our Apartheid system was a monster of cruelty and we whites are all culpable. Even if we did not support the ruling party, we all nevertheless benefited from it's policies and rule, at the expense of the blacks. And our government DID set out to, and succeeded in, enslaving, dominating and exploiting the entire black population. Our ... I support an independent Kurdistan. I support independence for Tibet, Eastern Turkestan, and Taiwan... and I could add a small few more. But Taiwan, I don't get. I confess I know little or nothing but why independent Taiwan. My impression was it was only the rump of the army left after their civil war. Is there a compelling reason for your view? Well, if I were to be totally honest, I think it makes much more sense for Taiwan to reunite with the mainland, however, as long as they don't want to, I support that decision. I essentially believe that any society is an implicit social contract between the state and its citizens. We must enter into that social contract out of choice, and it ceases to be meaningful if we are kept in it against our will. An essential justification for the compromises necessary in any social contract is that these compromises are voluntary. This is what I see as the simplest dividing line between good government and dictatorship. Thus perhaps the American South and Taiwan are different from the others. They... As to Michellezm... Thank you for your perspective on the Apartheid. As the word becomes used increasingly casually, I have often worried that we have lost sight of what the Apartheid was. Perhaps it is safe to say that it was unique in history, like the Holocaust, and to compare it to anything else is to gloss over the reality of it. If I understand you properly, the Apartheid was 1.) Intentional, in that it was not the byproduct of some other government agenda, 2.) Universal, in that all blacks were necessarily victims, and 3.) A collective effort that not only involved those who did it, but also those who said nothing yet still enjoyed the benefits. This provides some very useful bri... But then again... I can understand your feelings for Israel, believe me, I share them, but I wonder if there is ever a point where things could have gone too far? Is Israel truly fighting for its existence? If it is, then against whom? Is it really the Palestinians who threaten the existence of an Israeli state? If there is a threat to Israel, it comes from Iran, not the Palestinians. Even Israel's immediate neighbors, though seeking concessions, no longer seriously seek to eliminate it. So at some point, didn't it cease to be fighting for Israel and start to be fighting against Palestine? The conditions in which Israel and the US keep the Palestinian "State" are subhuman a... Le Monde diplomatique - English edition January 2007 ....why Hamas persists, despite considerable pressure at home and abroad, in refusing to recognise Israel officially and explicitly. The first answer, which is rarely discussed, is that Hamas is convinced that recognition would be a pointless concession. they were given nothing in return, neither a Palestinian state nor a capital in East Jerusalem. Worse, Israel did n... One should also consider this: just because Hamas is holding back on outright recognition doesn't mean that they don't plan to eventually give it. They may well simply be reluctant to give up the only bargaining chip they have. Of course. And doesn't Israel know this. Maybe... Israel doesn't want peace Haaretz By Gideon Levy The moment of truth has arrived, and it has to be or what about... What cease-fire? Haaretz By Amira Hass On 2 days before the Palestinians "broke the cease-fire," IDF soldiers killed nine Palestinians, including a 17 and 15-year-old girl and boy and a policeman on the roof of his house and not involved in any "battle." .... Apr26.'07 On the Saturday and Sunday before the Palestinians... |
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