I think the internet is a pulsing digital mirror of our society in all guises. It amazes me when people are surprised at the uglier side of society when it is also mirrored thru the internet. It is all there for all of us to discover, the beauty and community as well as the unpleasant. It is how we help each other see sense that will hopefully prevail.

I think bullies will always be a part of society, but they become braver when they can hide behind a keyboard and monitor screen. If you follow the threads to the blogs regarding this whole issue, it becomes very obvious that there was bullying going on.

With specfic regard to lord thor:

Some people speak without thinking in the ven...

I think the internet is a pulsing digital mirror of our society in all guises. It amazes me when people are surprised at the uglier side of society when it is also mirrored thru the internet. It is all there for all of us to discover, the beauty and community as well as the unpleasant. It is how we help each other see sense that will hopefully prevail.

I think bullies will always be a part of society, but they become braver when they can hide behind a keyboard and monitor screen. If you follow the threads to the blogs regarding this whole issue, it becomes very obvious that there was bullying going on.

With specfic regard to lord thor:

Some people speak without thinking in the venacular of the day... hip hop culture (which I happen to like most of, can take some of blame for the way we speak to each other) in some age groups anyway. So maybe lord thor was coming at it from that angle. If so, then perhaps he or she should have shown some cognizance of the issue before applying humor in the wrong place.

He or she should have the right to speak as well, ostracizing this person doesn't help them, it only gives the excuse for them to assume that they were right to be so hateful in the first place.

After having chased this story all over the Internet, and considering as much as I could glean about the actual facts, and the lynch mob of so-called "support" for KS, I have come away nonplussed. From drama, to "Codes of Conduct" for bloggers and site owners and anyone who might possibly be connected to anyone who ever made a snide remark, The following remarks I made as comments to some of the various threads are my end impressions.

[i]Greetings. I'm not directly an part of any of this KS issue; just came upon it at BlogHer, and have been following from link to link to try to get a general idea of the whole story (being the "fool me once, shame on you,...

After having chased this story all over the Internet, and considering as much as I could glean about the actual facts, and the lynch mob of so-called "support" for KS, I have come away nonplussed. From drama, to "Codes of Conduct" for bloggers and site owners and anyone who might possibly be connected to anyone who ever made a snide remark, The following remarks I made as comments to some of the various threads are my end impressions.

Greetings. I'm not directly an part of any of this KS issue; just came upon it at BlogHer, and have been following from link to link to try to get a general idea of the whole story (being the "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" type).
As I commented on another thread:


There are alot of valid points made in the original post here, as well as by many of the commenters. I myself, have had strong and varying feelings and thoughts on this topic since first catching wind of it.

Here are just a few:

"OMG!! That's taking it too far. This is NOT satire. Noone should be threatened this way."

"KS is so overreacting"

"How irresponsible to link to a hate site"

"Wait, was it a hate site or a juvenile satire site"

"What about free speech?"

"How can people be so hateful toward each other"?

"Who is crying wolf now"?

I could go on, but I suppose what I'm trying in my fumbling way to express is that I am constantly surprised by my own naivetee. I'm repeatedly getting caught up in "Spin". It's difficult to keep the facts straight, especially when we don't really know what the facts are.

If there was a death threat made it should be appropriately investigated and adjudicated.

If it's a matter of character assassination it's Civil. (whether against or by KS or both)

Intimidation is a tool of the ignorant, and Trolling and BaitingFlaming have practically become an Internet institution unto themselves.

I have a delete key and am willing to use it. and

(continued)


That said, I really think that the bloggers and site owners that would
abide by your "Code of Conduct", probably already are, for the most
part and as they see fit. Although you have made some valuable
suggestions, in it's entirety your "Code" is flawed in some of the ways
already mentioned, and perhaps in ways as yet unforeseen. As a blogger
and a citizen of this so-called "free" country, we are already plagued
by legal provisions in the Patriot Act and elsewhere that impinge
seriously on our right to express ourselves freely, and guilt by
association is again (as in the days of McCarthy, Hitler, and countless
others) is a tool of the powers that be.

Will and should we as ...

(continued)


That said, I really think that the bloggers and site owners that would
abide by your "Code of Conduct", probably already are, for the most
part and as they see fit. Although you have made some valuable
suggestions, in it's entirety your "Code" is flawed in some of the ways
already mentioned, and perhaps in ways as yet unforeseen. As a blogger
and a citizen of this so-called "free" country, we are already plagued
by legal provisions in the Patriot Act and elsewhere that impinge
seriously on our right to express ourselves freely, and guilt by
association is again (as in the days of McCarthy, Hitler, and countless
others) is a tool of the powers that be.

Will and should we as bloggers attempt to implement a "Code" that
amounts to censorship? Or shall we continue to each operate our blogs
in the way that meets our own comfort level?

KS is not some 13 year old that has been lured to a remote site by a
sexual predator, and she herself, has fallen short of your proposed
"Code"

By your "Code" should I be ostracised for posting this,

I Repudiate Fear

publicly, in my personal life journal after having doors in my house
kicked in, my grandmother and daughter terrified, and my life directly
threatened face to face?

Let's think, people.

posted in response to http://blogs.oreillynet.com/mt/mt-tb.cgi/1920

Part one of Thorne on a Soapbox

From the EULA:

Using the Site may expose you to content that you find objectionable, inappropriate or offensive, and posted content might be inaccurate, false or misleading. You agree that your use of the Site and Software is at your own risk and that we are not responsible or liable for any harm resulting from such use.

Further:

You may not (1) abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate or intimidate any other user of the Software or Site or otherwise interfere with any other user's use and enjoyment of the Software or Site

I don't see how LT has violated the above any more or less than many clippers here. (see the next comme...

Part one of Thorne on a Soapbox

From the EULA:

Using the Site may expose you to content that you find objectionable, inappropriate or offensive, and posted content might be inaccurate, false or misleading. You agree that your use of the Site and Software is at your own risk and that we are not responsible or liable for any harm resulting from such use.

Further:

You may not (1) abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate or intimidate any other user of the Software or Site or otherwise interfere with any other user's use and enjoyment of the Software or Site

I don't see how LT has violated the above any more or less than many clippers here. (see the next comment or 2 for a few examples)
LT's quip did not:

abuse, harass, threaten, impersonate or intimidate any other user of the Software or Site

As far as I know, KS is not a Clipmarks' member and LT's juvenile "verbal shot" was aimed at her.

I don't pass a day that I don't come across something on the site that I find offensive. Still, as an adult with a delete key who is not afraid to use it, as well as a clipper with a site tool which allows me to ignore anyone I choose, somehow I manage to negotiate this morass of filth and degradation and make it to the stuff that really matters.

In the following comment I'm going to link to a few clips that some readers might find objectionable. I'm also going to include some hatespeech, misogyny, racism, homophobia, and general ignorance, that I found cruising the site for a couple of hours. If LT is evicted, why not these Clippers?? Where does censorship end?
BTW, I found 24 clips which included the word “A**” in the title or tags, 8 with the word B*tch, 33 with the word “idiot”, 10 clips with “A**hole”, (only one of which was by LT), 70 Clips with “stupid”...

Ahhh. Only 6 “Vagina” clips, but over double the number of “pussy” clips...

44 “penis” clips, 4 "cock" clips, and as

Part 2 of Thorne on a Soapbox

Let's start with a little A** (cuz everybody likes a little a** now and then...)

Almost anyone would have to CRACK UP at this one, and here's a choice of a**, some hilarious Internet A**(icons)
This is definitely the winning A** pick (I can almost smell this one!!!)

Now, does this one go under "A**" or "Hatespeech"
tagged: rita cosby, annoying ass, annoying, ass,
More hate fil...

Part 2 of Thorne on a Soapbox

Let's start with a little A** (cuz everybody likes a little a** now and then...)

Almost anyone would have to CRACK UP at this one, and here's a choice of a**, some hilarious Internet A**(icons)
This is definitely the winning A** pick (I can almost smell this one!!!)

Now, does this one go under "A**" or "Hatespeech"
tagged: rita cosby, annoying ass, annoying, ass,
More hate filed under "B*tch"
Tagged: funny, coulter, ann coulter, bitch,
(Wasn't this the same word LT ised in reference to a public female??)

How about this crafty Clip I mean, I’ve heard of mixed media, but...
How about some racist humor??

A little commentary of homophobia, anyone??

Wow and just think, I could have been raised by 2 daddies just because they wanted to marry and play house and complete it with a kid so I could go to school and have my ass kicked every day. What a life for me

this is the most elegant (not) reason I have ever heard against the homosexual lifestyle. Stated very simply..."the plumbing don't fit".... crude but it makes a point.

A couple of friendly snippets from various clips of one prolific commenter and clipper: (Note that these attacks other members by name)

Ratilfar, You are just proving you are an idiot over and over again

Debbyski, I don't even know why you had to comment as you offer nothing but Bush bashing and nothing of substance. You say I've argued circular.

Part 3 of Thorne on a Soapbox
And finally, Le Piece du Resistance

-You are a real fu**ing idiot! If you can't see it yourself, then I won't be the one trying to explain, but hey, don't go too far off from your country... And yeah, America "the free country", is exactly the same type of empty words like "the peoples republic of China". And if you don't see it (and I guess you don't), I'll once again speak your language: Go FU** yourself!

My point is where does censorship end?? If clipmarks bans LT, what about the rest of this garbage? LT seemed to enjoy baiting, and trolling, but frankly some of my favorite wi...

Part 3 of Thorne on a Soapbox
And finally, Le Piece du Resistance

-You are a real fu**ing idiot! If you can't see it yourself, then I won't be the one trying to explain, but hey, don't go too far off from your country... And yeah, America "the free country", is exactly the same type of empty words like "the peoples republic of China". And if you don't see it (and I guess you don't), I'll once again speak your language: Go FU** yourself!

My point is where does censorship end?? If clipmarks bans LT, what about the rest of this garbage? LT seemed to enjoy baiting, and trolling, but frankly some of my favorite witty intellectuals here do the same, even if they use milder language.
I have been guilty of pushing a button or two around here myself, as have many of us.
I'm not defending LT here... I'm defending Clipmarks.

You're welcome, dellarae. I'm always glad to be of service. Still, I'm curious as to what you feel proved your point. I'm sorry if my assumption that you hadn't read the entire thread was erroneous. It seemed to me, that if one had indeed read the thread, and the entire discussion, one couldn't possibly made such a simplistic statement as:

Sure is a shame you focus so much on hate. What a sad world you have chosen to make for yourselves. A major waste of energy.

If you were commenting on just the couple of comments between LordThor and I, you would have been better served also to read the whole thread. You might then have understood that we were expressing satire, we wer...

You're welcome, dellarae. I'm always glad to be of service. Still, I'm curious as to what you feel proved your point. I'm sorry if my assumption that you hadn't read the entire thread was erroneous. It seemed to me, that if one had indeed read the thread, and the entire discussion, one couldn't possibly made such a simplistic statement as:

Sure is a shame you focus so much on hate. What a sad world you have chosen to make for yourselves. A major waste of energy.

If you were commenting on just the couple of comments between LordThor and I, you would have been better served also to read the whole thread. You might then have understood that we were expressing satire, we were actually poking fun at that sort of rudeness, with each other, and both knew that. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe only LT and I understood that we were being facetious. If that is the case, I'm not sure who you were defending. None the less, your judgemental statement clothed in selfrightous wording was just as pointless. A positive way to interact within this thread would have been to ask a question, if you really cared about what was being said.

Something like: LT and Thorne, why do you choose to use such hateful speech?
To which (the new and "improved) LT might have answered as honestly as I would have. We were playing. Please read the whole thread.
But perhaps, in the end you would have still felt that the topic

focused on hate,

rather than adressing and trying to understand the manifestation of it online and how to manage it. I can't know, because I'm not in your head any more than you are in mine.


If it was my use of the word ignorance, which I use by the definition to mean a lack of knowledge/understanding in reference to the topic at hand, perhaps I'm going to need to find another way to express that, since it seems to often be a perceived as an insult rather than in the way intend.


Now. I have tried my best to e

Hatred towards Women is the topic of the clip.
This topic has been expounded on quite proficiently,
with more of the same.

@thorne
Your profile states,

" . .the general ignorance and name calling . . is discouraging, in the least.. "

Here you state,

. . "This sort of persecution and hateful attack is NOT satire." . .

Verbable abuse is prosecutable on a legal level - point being it is not just a morality judgment. Intentionally pursuing negative reactions for personal enjoyment is harassment. Not to mention its a juvenile way to get attention.

thorne, You are a confusing complex of contradictions. Sometimes it is difficult to tell if ...

Hatred towards Women is the topic of the clip.
This topic has been expounded on quite proficiently,
with more of the same.

@thorne
Your profile states,

" . .the general ignorance and name calling . . is discouraging, in the least.. "

Here you state,

. . "This sort of persecution and hateful attack is NOT satire." . .

Verbable abuse is prosecutable on a legal level - point being it is not just a morality judgment. Intentionally pursuing negative reactions for personal enjoyment is harassment. Not to mention its a juvenile way to get attention.

thorne, You are a confusing complex of contradictions. Sometimes it is difficult to tell if you are commenting while being level headed or hotheaded - or in 'funny' mode.

" your judgemental statement clothed in selfrightous wording "

I have not addressed anyone with obnoxious insults, on any level, as You have. Choosing different verbage is not being selfrightous. Is this threatening to you? Why the Attack then?

You tell me to address my statements directly to . . . whatever, and yet you spit out comments without regards to other clippers and seldom clarifying that your comments are specifically directed to any one person.

Returning to the topic of the clip, the source it is posted from states,

. . Do not put these people on a pedestal. Do not let them get away with calling this "social commentary", "protected speech", or simply "criticism", . .

You come across doing exactly that, elevating the 'Spin'
and not the topic.
Focusing energy supporting, well, just plain meanness.

If you enjoy partaking in a p*s'ng contest, have at it. Enjoy.
But don't blame another, or get mad, when you get soaked.

Let's think, people.

'nuff said, no more

dellarae,
Too bad if you are done when we've really just begun to have some sincere dialogue. I am a

confusing complex of contradictions

I thought that was clear to the reader from my honest admission of getting "caught" in the spin, and my myriad responses to the "new" and "different" info I was finding, as follows:

"OMG!! That's taking it too far. This is NOT satire. Noone should be threatened this way."

"KS is so overreacting"

"How irresponsible to link to a hate site"

"Wait, was it a hate site or a juvenile satire site"

"What about free speech?"

[i]"How...

read more»

dellarae,
Too bad if you are done when we've really just begun to have some sincere dialogue. I am a

confusing complex of contradictions

I thought that was clear to the reader from my honest admission of getting "caught" in the spin, and my myriad responses to the "new" and "different" info I was finding, as follows:

"OMG!! That's taking it too far. This is NOT satire. Noone should be threatened this way."

"KS is so overreacting"

"How irresponsible to link to a hate site"

"Wait, was it a hate site or a juvenile satire site"

"What about free speech?"

"How can people be so hateful toward each other"?

(sound familiar??? This statement could have been made by you, but it was me!)

Thorne says:

If there was a death threat made it should be appropriately investigated and adjudicated.

dellarae says:

Verbable abuse is prosecutable on a legal level

We agree.

Thorne says:

Intimidation is a tool of the ignorant, and Trolling and BaitingFlaming have practically become an Internet institution unto themselves.

dellarae says:

Intentionally pursuing negative reactions for personal enjoyment is
harassment. Not to mention its a juvenile way to get attention.

We agree again. (and there's me using "ignorant" and you using "juvenile". Are we being harassing, or expressing opinion??

Sometimes it is difficult to tell if you are commenting while being level headed or hotheaded - or in 'funny' mode.

"Sometimes" I'm sure I may be in any of those modes. I don't just have one mode.
Look around the site at most of my comments. I admit I've gotten pretty snotty a couple of times, but for the most part I prefer dialogue, will occasionally crack wise or witty, and when in an endless circular argument I choose to disen

As an aside, you actually started a really good thing rolling, whether you realize it or not. My censorship consideration "rant",(reposted as Clipping Clipmarks parts 1 2 3 4) allowed me and perhaps others to really consider these issues, how they applied to us and our participation here and elsewhere. LT was unbanned and is being a kinder/gentler "punk" as I affectionately term him. Eric and Co have put up [url=/clipmark/20F7EEAA-9C57-4508-9746-FFE...

As an aside, you actually started a really good thing rolling, whether you realize it or not. My censorship consideration "rant",(reposted as Clipping Clipmarks parts 1 2 3 4) allowed me and perhaps others to really consider these issues, how they applied to us and our participation here and elsewhere. LT was unbanned and is being a kinder/gentler "punk" as I affectionately term him. Eric and Co have put up My Thoughts on the Clipmarks Way, and an accompanying Video, expressing the growing dillemma and how to deal with it.
It's my feeling that regardless of the difficulty and many personalities and views expressed, these types of dialogue are overall good things!
/clipmark/20F7EEAA-9C57-4508-9746-FFE360B43183/

rick lynn
mayfieldga@bellsouth.net

I am a Male, but I know Males are being very vicious in their attacks using the media. I think when we all understand why this hate against women is occurring, we can begin to at least attempt to tackle the problem more correctly than is being approached at present. I must admit I am much more wary in dealing with women due to years of both differential treatment and also the freedom of expression of many women that can hurt with impunity. Now I am one of the good guys and do not use hateful speech but attempt to be good to all.

My learning theory shows how our individual environments do greatly affect thinking, learning, and motivation to learn ...

rick lynn
mayfieldga@bellsouth.net

I am a Male, but I know Males are being very vicious in their attacks using the media. I think when we all understand why this hate against women is occurring, we can begin to at least attempt to tackle the problem more correctly than is being approached at present. I must admit I am much more wary in dealing with women due to years of both differential treatment and also the freedom of expression of many women that can hurt with impunity. Now I am one of the good guys and do not use hateful speech but attempt to be good to all.

My learning theory shows how our individual environments do greatly affect thinking, learning, and motivation to learn that can accumulate to years of differences for students over time. This differential treatment from day one is leaving more and more Males behind academically and economically. My theory also provides tools and a way out of our growing Male Crisis. I see differential treatment over time has now created this Crisis. I feel there is definitely another big foot ready to fall if Males fall behind more collectively.

I feel the hate for women you are seeing on the internet is but the opening salvo of what could become general and collective acceptance of not just hateful words but more harsh action on the part of Males. I know if I feel some hate myself and understand the reasons logically, then I know those individuals who are not as insightful must be harboring much more hate.

You see, Males from early on are given love, honor, respect, and support only on the condition of sufficient achievement, money, power, and status. These areas make up the elements that give Males feelings of self worth. Those Males that do not have sufficient in those areas are not only not given love, honor, and respect, they receive more aggression from society. As Males fall farther behind they are beginning to feel more loss of self worth. Society has a long standing rule that Males s

rick lynn
mayfieldga@bellsouth.net

I am a Male, but know Males are vicious in their attacks. I think when we understand why this hate is occurring, we can attempt to tackle the problem more correctly. I must admit I am more wary of women due to years of differential treatment and also freedom of expression of many women that hurt with impunity. I am one of the good guys and do not use hateful speech but attempt to be good to all.

My learning theory shows how our individual environments greatly affect learning, and motivation to learn that can accumulate in years of differences for students over time. This differential treatment is leaving more and more Males behind academically and ...

rick lynn
mayfieldga@bellsouth.net

I am a Male, but know Males are vicious in their attacks. I think when we understand why this hate is occurring, we can attempt to tackle the problem more correctly. I must admit I am more wary of women due to years of differential treatment and also freedom of expression of many women that hurt with impunity. I am one of the good guys and do not use hateful speech but attempt to be good to all.

My learning theory shows how our individual environments greatly affect learning, and motivation to learn that can accumulate in years of differences for students over time. This differential treatment is leaving more and more Males behind academically and economically. My theory provides tools and a way out of our growing Male Crisis. I see differential treatment over time has created this Crisis. I feel there is another big foot ready to fall if Males fall behind collectively.

I feel the hate for women you are seeing is but an opening salvo of what could become general and collective acceptance of not just hateful words but more harsh action by Males. I know if I feel some hate myself and understand the reasons logically, then I know those individuals who are not as insightful must be harboring much more hate.

Males from early on are given love, honor, respect, and support only on condition of achievement, money, power, and status. These areas make up the elements that give Males feelings of self worth. Males who do not have sufficient in those areas are not only not given love, honor, and respect, they receive more aggression from society. As Males fall farther behind they are beginning to feel more loss of self worth. Society has a long standing rule that Males should pull themselves by their bootstraps, mentally, emotionally, socially, and academically. Also there is allowed aggression upon Males designed to make them tough. This creates higher layers of mental frictions (redefined from average stress) that t