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kmcolofollowshare
12-15-2007 8:23 AM
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kmcolo says:
A very interesting interview with historian Thomas Cahill where he argues that execution, which shows no deterrent qualities, is not punishment but is likely a deeply held, ancient behavioral need to kill that was acted out in ancient societies as human sacrifices.
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12-15-2007 12:17 PM
ouyangwulong
Looking at the need for ritualized murder, there are many theories, mostly fanciful.

Fact: For some reason, humans living in social groups really seem to like collective violence, especially when it is a ritualized murder with a pre-designated victim. (By the way, this description is equally applicable to sacrifice and execution, despite their possible differences.)

Question: Why the heck do we do that?

No satisfactory answer has been given, to date, if you ask me, but here are a few theories...

Freud: The Oedipal Complex. We kill them because we feel bad about wanting to kill daddy, so we find someone else to kill instead and feel better about it. Freuds evidence of this includes a high...
12-15-2007 12:26 PM
Socratoad
Very profound clip. Food for thought, which is much more to be admired than dark ages retribution.
12-15-2007 1:20 PM
btcheesenip
The death penalty is punishment for a misdeed and the punishment is death. A human sacrifice is a life taken either at random or by some random set of criteria for purposes of either entertainment or ritual. The death penalty is done behind closed doors. A human sacrifice is done opennly for many to see. The death penalty is a conclusion deduced from certain lines of moral logic. A human sacrifice is a barbaric custom derived from a severe lack of logic. The only dots I'm connecting here is that someone dies. I mean, seriously? The vast majority of people have NO PART whatsoever in killing anyone, whether it be the people murdered or the people receiving the death penalty. They are ...
12-15-2007 2:13 PM
debbyski
I think that there are many things within the human soul or within the human character that we ignore.
12-15-2007 2:17 PM
willhelm
Btcheesenip, Great comment!
Ockhams' razor does not work in the realm of scientism where confirmation of ones bias and world view is the only objective.
12-15-2007 3:40 PM
dawson
I'm against the death penalty, and abortion, which is even more hideous, and have long been so.
But to say capital punishment "shows no deterrent qualities" seems ill informed and naive to me.
I'd be delighted to see the solid facts backing up such a statement.
I mean if someone is dead they are 'deterred' from doing much of anything.
And if, say, first time drunk drivers were executed, I find it easy to believe that many less people would drive after drinking.
Killing is morally wrong, even if it deterred 99% of crime. That's not the point as I see it.
12-15-2007 4:02 PM
BobbyRutan
Link to Study - At either the national level or looking solely at Texas, and using a variety of model specifications, we found no evidence of a deterrent effect of capital punishment on the rates of capital-eligible homicides. To the contrary, our models found that the market share of homicides that are capital-eligible grows over time, even as the risk of execution increases. We conclude that despite the recent drop in homicides as a whole, the threat of execution has had no deterrent effect on the very cases it was designed to prevent and that there has been no evidence of any differences between death penalty s...
12-15-2007 4:47 PM
dawson
BobbyR, that's good to have, I'd not seen it and thank you for pointing me to it. Very interesting, and not just some random guy with a modem and a blog. Thanks much.
12-15-2007 5:47 PM
kmcolo
btcheesenip,

First the headline is execution as human sacrifice not is human sacrifice. That said you would have more of an argument if execution was used evenly and not in the capricious at best or racist/classist at worse manner it is.
12-15-2007 10:56 PM
ouyangwulong
In Response to Btcheesenip (and others)...

1. Occam's Razor:
The simplest answer is always true. This is inductive logic, not deductive. It is also impossible to imagine it as true. Given any answer to a question, it is obviously possible to think of more complex ways, and simpler ones as well. Is DNA really the simplest explanation of our physical traits? Not really. Is gravity the simplest explanation of attraction between massive bodies? Certainly not. In slight correction, Occam's Razor has no place in Science. It is a superstitious and speculative way of reasoning absent observable facts.

Even worse, it is used to avoid scrutiny of our own opinions. The answer that the death penalty...
12-15-2007 11:22 PM
ouyangwulong
3. Similarities:
First, all three have the following characteristics in common: One individual, in a position of power, (the agent) takes the life of another individual, in a position of weakness. (the victim) In all three, let us presume that the weaker individual is not a willing participant. (Although that may not universally be the case in sacrifice, but let's just say those who assent to being sacrificed have probably been misled, which is an abrogation of one's free will.)

From a Kantian perspective, all three are immoral because the victim is used as a mere means. Given that both the victim and the agent are humans, with no scientific way of distinguishing them in fundamental human d...
12-15-2007 11:43 PM
ouyangwulong
4. The Necessarily Religious aspects of Capital Punishment

Finally, I would like add a little bit of perspective on the religious aspect of capital punishment, which I believe is important. It is one of modern politics' greatest incongruities that people who are "pro-life" are also often the most fervently in favor of the death penalty. Why? I believe that God is the answer.

Consider this: Conscientious Objectors

Generally, killing another person is viewed as wrong, and prohibited by most religions. However, not all religions are granted conscientious objectors by the US government. Why is that?

Let's contrast my religion, Buddhism, with that of the moral majority, which is Christianity ...
12-15-2007 11:51 PM
ouyangwulong
Clarification, I meant above: Most Christians would say an executioner will go to heaven and not hell, provided he is a good Christian, because God will forgive his sins.
12-16-2007 11:26 AM
BartendingBear
Fact: For some reason, humans living in social groups really seem to like collective violence, especially when it is a ritualized murder with a pre-designated victim.
To me, this explains fully the popularity of TV wrestling; ritualized murder (albeit metaphoric) with a pre-designated victim.

A human sacrifice is a barbaric custom derived from a severe lack of logic.
But, religious dogma fills the bill nicely and is coherent with your assertion. Gotta love it when the dogmatic hand one the noose.
12-21-2007 9:00 AM
syncopath
execution, which shows no deterrent qualities, is not punishment but is likely a deeply held, ancient behavioral need to kill
very brave clip.
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